kitty cat fewds
Posted by lime green on Sep 25, 2007 · Member since Apr 2007 · 634 posts
i am about to get a cat. she is currently on a steady diet of purina dry food, but i was wondering ifanyone knew anything about cruelty free pet foods? i don't want to put her on a vegan diet, as i've heard this is not good for the kittehs. but i would like to know what the options are as far as free range or free farmed meat in pet foods..? she is four years old, indoor/outdoor, healthy (no worms or fleas). what do y'all feed your fuzzies?
I feed a mixture of:
Pet Promise canned http://www.petpromiseinc.com/cat_wet_chicken.htm
Innova Evo dry http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1500
and Nature's Variety Raw http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?page=1507&-session=naturesvariety:46A25749169bf140E4Gsu276A13A
Definitely get her off the Purina--it's bad for all animals involved (the ones being eaten and the one eating). I've found that the fewer grains I feed my cats, the less stinky and gross their poop is (see thread "Where has all the cat poop gone?"). Cats can't digest grains, so they're just in there to fill them up but don't really provide nutrients.
Yay for a new kitty cat!
Unfortunately there's no such thing as a cruelty-free nonvegan cat food (or a cruelty-free nonvegan anything). There's just different levels of cruelty. Many people find that vegan cat foods can support healthy lives for their cats, but if, as others believe, vegan cat food is unhealthy (or if your cat won't eat it), then the choice is simply between cruelty to the cat or cruelty to the animals farmed for its food. But the cruelty is there either way, and shouldn't be forgotten or ignored. Most people seem to feel that cats have rights that trump the rights of the animals fed to them, and that it would be morally worse to allow harm to the cat in one's care than to cause harm (and death) to the animals farmed for the cat. So if that's where you find yourself, something like Pet Promise can help to minimize the cruelty you support. (In case this sounds like an attack I should add that I myself feed my cat Pet Promise. Unlike my friends' cats, she would not eat Evolution. I just don't want to pretend I'm not paying someone to abuse, torture and kill animals; I am.)
I was just checking out the Pet Promise site to check out their nutritional info. I've seen the food before (at Whole Foods maybe?).....My one problem with the food is that though chicken is the 1st ingredient, the next 4 ingredients are brewers rice, corn gluten meal, soy flour, and pearled barley. Sometimes if you add up the amount of those ingredients in the food, they actually surpass the amount of chicken (meat). I also know that corn is not easily digested by cats (or by us humans for that matter..OK.....gross out time....ever see corn in your stool???? :P ). Soy is probably added to boost the protein contant as well...also not highly recommended for cats or dogs.
I recommend the Natures Variety Organic Chicken for cats.
Here's a comparison of the ingredients:
Pet Promise:
INGREDIENTS:
Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, soy flour, pearled barley, dried egg product, fat naturally preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), brewers dried yeast, oat meal, natural flavor, calcium carbonate, soy protein isolate, phosphoric acid, salt, taurine, vitamins , choline chloride, minerals , potassium chloride, calcium phosphate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate .
Natures Variety Organic Raw:
Organic Chicken, Raw Ground Organic Chicken Bone, Organic Chicken Liver, Organic Chicken Heart, Organic Chicken Eggs, Organic Bok Choy, Organic Carrots, Organic Apples, Organic Pears, Organic Persimmons, Organic Flaxseed Oil, Organic Yogurt (Organic Grade A Pasteurized Milk, Organic Nonfat Milk, Fructan, Pectin, Live and Active Yogurt Cultures: Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium lactis, Streptococcus thermophilus, Lactobacillus bulgaricus,
Lactobacillus casei), Organic Alfalfa Sprouts, Organic Parsley, Organic Blueberries.
Natures Variety Instinct Kibble for cats:
Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Tapioca, Pumpkinseeds, Salmon Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken Liver, Dried Kelp, DL-Methionine, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Sea Salt, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Apples, Chicken Eggs, Cottage Cheese, Cranberries, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Carrots, Ground Chicken Bone, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseeds, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Blueberries, Rosemary Extract, Alfalfa Sprouts, Olive Oil, Persimmons, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Sage, Clove.
I see a big big difference in the ingredients.
One thing I learned about pet foods is that many of the manufacturers play a little trick on consumers.....they will list a meat as the first ingredient, and then follow it by lots of grains. Most of the times that really adds up to there actually being more grains in the food then actual meat (when added altogether)....
Just some.... er....food for thought....
-dave
I was just checking out the Pet Promise site to check out their nutritional info. I've seen the food before (at Whole Foods maybe?).....My one problem with the food is that though chicken is the 1st ingredient, the next 4 ingredients are brewers rice, corn gluten meal, soy flour, and pearled barley. Sometimes if you add up the amount of those ingredients in the food, they actually surpass the amount of chicken (meat). I also know that corn is not easily digested by cats (or by us humans for that matter..OK.....gross out time....ever see corn in your stool???? :P ). Soy is probably added to boost the protein contant as well...also not highly recommended for cats or dogs.
I stopped feeding my cats the Pet Promise kibble because of all the grains--they loved it, but their poo smelled awful! They were still very spunky and healthy, but they just weren't digesting it as well as they now are digesting Innnova Evo. Pet Promise's wet food has a much lower grain content--the first five ingredients of the Chicken variety are: Chicken, chicken broth, chicken liver, brown rice, and potato protein. I feed the wet because it's a pretty good food, and I like the company, but they should up the meat content of their kibble (and get rid of that d**n corn! >:( ).
my cat's dont have the "poo" problem like yours on PP. i noticed cory's IBS (whatever it is for cats) has also gone away (yay!). but i think i'll check out some other foods next time i'm at the store. my prob is i'm limited income and can't afford some of the really good stuff right now... but i know i will get it when i get a real job. at least i am comforted knowing i'm not feeding them "mcdonalds" all the time now!
I think it might have mostly been Lucy since her tummy has always been a little weird, but with three of them, I can't tell if it's one cat's poo or all three that smell rank.
Do you have any "feed and tack" types of stores around where you live? I've found that the one near my house sells really high quality cat and dog foods (Innova, California Natural, Natural Balance, etc.) and they are quite a bit cheaper than "pet supply stores". I also found that mine sells World's Best Cat Litter for $10 less for the 34lb bag than PetSmart/PetCo! I'm glad I stopped in there--I thought it was all horse stuff (giant bins of oats, saddles, etc.), but apparently they can be good sources for cat/dog stuff too!
I fed my cats Evolution vegan cat food for awhile, they did really well on it, except that it is so expensive. But they eat less, poo less, makes their coat more silky, and they seem more energetic. Also their poo almost lost all scent, which was a good thing. I am not entirely sure if it is good for them in the long run, but they seemed to like it and did okay on it. I, however, did give them an occasional can of tuna or something to suppliment their diet but they didn't seem to need it, I just wanted to spoil them.
thanks for all the info guys! i think i will try this pet promis dry food, and maybe some all meat wet. she is hopefully moving in this week!
My cat loves Pet Promise and I recommend it!
Has anyone ever heard of Organix? I'm feeding that to my cat now, but I'm thinking of also trying the Nature's Variety...
This is what I know:
1) cats can't digest grain. It's just filler if it's in their food. They can digest a few veggies and fruits.
2) because of their tricky digestion (omnivorous creatures get lucky... they aren't as delicate) they must have animal protein.
3) onions are a no-no (garlic is questionable). It gives them anemia.
4) cow's milk is not for cats. Gives them diarrhea.
5) wet food is easier on their systems than dry food. If you find a brand that doesn't smell vile (I am very fond of Old Mother Hubbard's cat brand... I forget their name.)
6) dry food is convenient, and I like to offer it too. It can harbor bacteria much more readily than the wet stuff. Toss out remnants frequently, wash all dishes often, and change their water a couple times a day if you can.
Enjoy the kitty! :)
This is what I know:
1) cats can't digest grain. It's just filler if it's in their food. They can digest a few veggies and fruits.
2) because of their tricky digestion (omnivorous creatures get lucky... they aren't as delicate) they must have animal protein.
3) onions are a no-no (garlic is questionable). It gives them anemia.
4) cow's milk is not for cats. Gives them diarrhea.
5) wet food is easier on their systems than dry food. If you find a brand that doesn't smell vile (I am very fond of Old Mother Hubbard's cat brand... I forget their name.)
6) dry food is convenient, and I like to offer it too. It can harbor bacteria much more readily than the wet stuff. Toss out remnants frequently, wash all dishes often, and change their water a couple times a day if you can.
Enjoy the kitty! :)
1 and 2 aren't quite true... I know many cats that have been vegan for years. If 1 and 2 were true, they'd have been dead long ago! Instead they seem to enjoy full health.
1 and 2 aren't quite true... I know many cats that have been vegan for years. If 1 and 2 were true, they'd have been dead long ago! Instead they seem to enjoy full health.
Celphi,
I know you've brought this up many times (about the cats you know that eat a vegan diet). I have to say you can use the analogy that some people can eat McDonald's a few times a week well into their 20's or 30's (maybe beyond), and seem to be in perfect health. They may have what is to be considered a perfect cholesterol level, perfect blood pressure, and a low BMI. I myself ate like crap up until 8 years ago (when I first became a veggie). I was far from being what many would say to be "unhealthy"...actually I was really fit and in great shape during that period.
The fact of the matter is that if I continued to eat that way....somewhere down the road in my 50's or 60's I'd pay a price for eating that way. You can look around and see many college kids eating junk on a daily basis and they are far from being flabby, out of shape, etc. SOme are out of shape...but that's 50% of the US population anyway. One of my brothers who is in his 40's might actually eat the worst diet i have ever seen an individual eat. He eats nothing but fast food, boxed mac and cheese, hot dogs, tons of pepperoni pizza, and similar garbage. He also consumes cokes by the jug full. He is not out of shape. He works out, as I said he runs marathons...and he's by no means stupid (he's an attorney), and should know that somewhere later in life his diet may have dire consequences for him. As my brother....I hope he one day does change for the better.
I think if you compare several cats..... Some that eat a very high quality meat based diet from birth, compared to some that eat nothing but a vegan diet their whole lives....with neither group being vaccinated yearly, or given harmful flea & tick products, etc....in the long run, the cats eating a lifelong diet consisting of meat will be healthier. Just because you know some cats eating a vegan diet for years....it does not mean a lifelong vegan diet for them is "HEALTHIER" or "AS HEALTHY" for them in the long run.
I still go by the list and research done by Dr. Martin Goldstein and he has yet to list any vegan dog or cat foods as being a suitable or recommended pet food. You can find his list here: http://www.drmarty.com/feeding.htm
1 and 2 aren't quite true... I know many cats that have been vegan for years. If 1 and 2 were true, they'd have been dead long ago! Instead they seem to enjoy full health.
Celphi,
I know you've brought this up many times (about the cats you know that eat a vegan diet). I have to say you can use the analogy that some people can eat McDonald's a few times a week well into their 20's or 30's (maybe beyond), and seem to be in perfect health. They may have what is to be considered a perfect cholesterol level, perfect blood pressure, and a low BMI. I myself ate like crap up until 8 years ago (when I first became a veggie). I was far from being what many would say to be "unhealthy"...actually I was really fit and in great shape during that period.
The fact of the matter is that if I continued to eat that way....somewhere down the road in my 50's or 60's I'd pay a price for eating that way. You can look around and see many college kids eating junk on a daily basis and they are far from being flabby, out of shape, etc. SOme are out of shape...but that's 50% of the US population anyway. One of my brothers who is in his 40's might actually eat the worst diet i have ever seen an individual eat. He eats nothing but fast food, boxed mac and cheese, hot dogs, tons of pepperoni pizza, and similar garbage. He also consumes cokes by the jug full. He is not out of shape. He works out, as I said he runs marathons...and he's by no means stupid (he's an attorney), and should know that somewhere later in life his diet may have dire consequences for him. As my brother....I hope he one day does change for the better.
I think if you compare several cats..... Some that eat a very high quality meat based diet from birth, compared to some that eat nothing but a vegan diet their whole lives....with neither group being vaccinated yearly, or given harmful flea & tick products, etc....in the long run, the cats eating a lifelong diet consisting of meat will be healthier. Just because you know some cats eating a vegan diet for years....it does not mean a lifelong vegan diet for them is "HEALTHIER" or "AS HEALTHY" for them in the long run.
I still go by the list and research done by Dr. Martin Goldstein and he has yet to list any vegan dog or cat foods as being a suitable or recommended pet food. You can find his list here: http://www.drmarty.com/feeding.htm
You could, of course, easily also find twenty such dieticians telling us that veganism is equally bad for humans. But even supposing we should accept that doctor's ideas, it still seems to me only a small part of what should be considered here.
As it stands, eating vegan and healthfully is good for the earth and doesn't involve paying someone to imprison, rape, torture and kill animals; eating MacDonalds does involve that. If the situation were reversed, though, I would eat MacDonalds, even knowing its inferior health benefits. I certainly wouldn't choose relatively minor health gains for myself over imprisonment, torture, rape, and death for a great many other beings, as well as environmental destruction. I wouldn't privilege any being so highly over others in that way. We have no right to do so.
As it stands, eating vegan and healthfully is good for the earth and doesn't involve paying someone to imprison, rape, torture and kill animals; eating MacDonalds does involve that. If the situation were reversed, though, I would eat MacDonalds, even knowing its inferior health benefits. I certainly wouldn't choose relatively minor health gains for myself over imprisonment, torture, rape, and death for a great many other beings, as well as environmental destruction. I wouldn't privilege any being so highly over others in that way. We have no right to do so.
You're not winning me over towards animal rights and my views on them.... there's no need to....I'm vegan for the very same reasons as you and believe my views on the subject are well known around here. I have stated many times over and over here on vegweb that I do not think my life is worth more then any other living creatures. I think I've done a pretty good job over the years supporting the animals by my actions, my words and with my wallet. With regards to Dr. G's studies and his own ethics, he himself has been vegan since before either you or I were born to this world...also for animal rights issues. It's just that when it comes to my pets (dogs and cats included)....I know that they would naturally be ripping apart other animals limb by limb and would be out in the woods hunting prey with absolutely no regards for their pain and suffering...they would not be out hunting artichokes, wheat, corn, or lettuce. I also know it's not natural for them to live in my house, and to have the creature comforts I provide for them...and to not even ever have to worry about hunting for their own food (though many of them did until I found them....and they were obviously doing a horrible job at it).....but I refuse to force my vegan beliefs on them. It's not normal, it's far from natural, and yes...I do conclude that it is unhealthy....To have fresh meat is much more then a "minor health gain" for them. It's a "required" diet for them to function in the best way that their bodies were designed to process nutrition. I've also mentioned it many times here that it bothers me to no end that other animals suffer so that mine can live. But as I stated above, that is EXACTLY what they would be doing if they had not been domesticated. Killing other living things so that they can live. My cats are indoor cats, but when they look out the window at a bird, or spot a bunny....I can see the changes in them...their eyes even...they want to hunt, that very part of their nature has not changed. When I see a cow, I don't see a hamburger or a steak...I see something that I want to give a hug and an affectionate pat on the head. There is not one cell in my body that wants to cause them any harm or pain. I don't believe neither of us will ever change the others mind on this issue....that's OK...once more we'll just agree to disagree. :)
As it stands, eating vegan and healthfully is good for the earth and doesn't involve paying someone to imprison, rape, torture and kill animals; eating MacDonalds does involve that. If the situation were reversed, though, I would eat MacDonalds, even knowing its inferior health benefits. I certainly wouldn't choose relatively minor health gains for myself over imprisonment, torture, rape, and death for a great many other beings, as well as environmental destruction. I wouldn't privilege any being so highly over others in that way. We have no right to do so.
You're not winning me over towards animal rights and my views on them.... there's no need to....I'm vegan for the very same reasons as you and believe my views on the subject are well known around here. I have stated many times over and over here on vegweb that I do not think my life is worth more then any other living creatures. I think I've done a pretty good job over the years supporting the animals by my actions, my words and with my wallet. With regards to Dr. G's studies and his own ethics, he himself has been vegan since before either you or I were born to this world...also for animal rights issues. It's just that when it comes to my pets (dogs and cats included)....I know that they would naturally be ripping apart other animals limb by limb and would be out in the woods hunting prey with absolutely no regards for their pain and suffering...they would not out hunting artichokes, wheat, corn, or lettuce. I also know it's not natural for them to live in my house, and to have the creature comforts I provide for them...and to not even to ever worry about hunting for their own food (though many of them did until I found them....and they were obviously doing a horrible job at it).....but I refuse to force my vegan beliefs on them. It's not normal, it's far from natural, and yes...I do conclude that it is unhealthy....To have fresh meat is much more then a "minor health gain" for them. It's a "required" diet for them to function in the best way that their bodies were designed to process nutrition. I've also mentioned it many times here that it bothers me to no end that other animals suffer so that mine can live. But as I stated above, that is EXACTLY what they would be doing if they had not been domesticated. Killing other living things so that they can live. My cats are indoor cats, but when they look out the window at a bird, or spot a bunny....I can see the changes in them...their eyes even...they want to hunt, that very part of their nature has not changed. When I see a cow, I don't see a hamburger or a steak...I see something that I want to give a hug and an affectionate pat on the head. There is not one cell in my body that wants to cause them any harm or pain. I don't believe neither of us will ever change the others mind on this issue....that's OK...once more we'll just agree to disagree. :)
The cat would be hunting if it were feral, and maybe it would succeed; maybe not. If you really want to provide a natural environment for your cat, you should starve her for a few days every once in a while, put her outside in inclement weather, and make sure that every once in a while she is bitten and chased by predators, among other things. But this is a very different situation. For one thing, the prey of a feral cat has a much, MUCH better life than the animals imprisoned, tortured, raped and killed in factory farms. The cat would certainly not "naturally" be causing that.
By the way, there are many creatures that, when they have the opportunity, will eat humans. Suppose I operate a sanctuary where a crocodile is kept. Is it acceptable for me to feed humans to this creature? Obviously not. Even if crocodiles preferred human flesh over all others and were uniquely well sustained by it, it would be a moral monstrosity to give them humans to eat. Just because a creature would "naturally" do X doesn't give us moral carte blanche to do X for the creature.
You say that to provide vegan food would be to force vegan beliefs on your cat. But no matter what choice you make here, you are forcing beliefs on your cat. Your cat currently has no position on dietary ethics, since she is not equipped to understand the issues. We can, of course, wonder what her values would be, were she intellectually equipped to have the relevant values. For my part, I have to believe that, if my cat were able to understand these issues, she would not be so cruel, depraved, selfish and evil as to choose to imprison, torture, rape and kill other animals for relatively minor health gains for herself. I cannot convince myself to hold such a low opinion of her. (Also, you say the health gains are not minor; I should clarify that I meant "relatively minor" as compared to the health effects of imprisonment, torture, rape and slaughter.)
In the end, if the goal is to minimize the amount of animal suffering we cause, it seems clear that vegan food is the better choice. Nonvegan food is only appropriate if we value some animal lives as more morally important than those of the animals being imprisoned, tortured, raped and killed for their food. Although I care deeply for my cat, I do not think her rights to maximum healthfulness trump the rights of rabbits, ducks, chickens, salmon, turkeys and cows to live free from imprisonment, torture, rape and slaughter.
I think cats are inappropriate pets for people unwilling to care for an obligate carnivore.
Period.
I think cats are inappropriate pets for people unwilling to care for an obligate carnivore.
Period.
Seems just as plausible to me that cats are inappropriate pets for people who cannot keep them without supporting factory farming. But then if we realize that we're asking one another to put our cats out on the street and reduce the number of loving homes, both of those two claims start to sound misguided.
Actually I have spoken up several times against putting cats anywhere near a street... that being a "sic them on the wildlife" solution that is far more untenable than "pit bred animals against bred animals" scenario.
What you are saying is counter-logical, Cephi. Why have them if you won't care for them properly? It's just selfish to insist on having carnivores around and then feeding them according to your own whim and vanity... I know this conversation has come up many times but I am much more willing to trust professionals than to trust duffers with anecdotes.
That goes for VegWeb health advice. ("Oh, help me, I have boils and I think my thumb fell off" - the answer should ALWAYS be "seek professional help.")
That goes for VegWeb pet nutrition. ("Oh, help me, my furry friend eats meat oh grossssss" - the answer probably should ALWAYS be "then do not keep carnivorous pets.")
That goes for VegWeb "why privilege one animal over another" conversations, although they are admittedly more provocative. ("Oh, I think my dogs should roam wild and leashless like nature intended..." - nature didn't really come up with pet species, they're anthropogenic and certainly in the places and quantities where they now exist. They require social, not natural, solutions. Is a vegan cat, for instance, a social solution? Yes, til it gets feline diabetes, dental caries, and experiences other symptoms of malnutrition. Then that pesky nature rears its head again.)
Dogs are carnivores, but they can subsist without animal proteins. It is inadvisable and even cruel to do that to a cat.
You have to work out your balance of morality and science, but you cannot make science go away because you do not like it.
I'm sorry if my tone seems harsh. I really am not angry, just... well, it is what it is. You would not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. You cannot make a vegan out of a cat. It's not the cat's moral commitment, nor in the cat's best interests... although yes, were it to be a wild cat, its lifespan might be comparable or shorter than that of a vegan cat. A well cared for domestic cat who lives its life inside only should (barring a terrible congenital defect or accident) survive longer.
Not to flog a dead horse, but I thought of a more cogent way to say what's on my mind...
Which is more irresponsible: to malnourish a pet due to ideological decisions, or to choose pets that are compatible with my ideology?
I love cats too, and I am not advocating anything horrible here.
Actually I have spoken up several times against putting cats anywhere near a street... that being a "sic them on the wildlife" solution that is far more untenable than "pit bred animals against bred animals" scenario.
What you are saying is counter-logical, Cephi. Why have them if you won't care for them properly? It's just selfish to insist on having carnivores around and then feeding them according to your own whim and vanity... I know this conversation has come up many times but I am much more willing to trust professionals than to trust duffers with anecdotes.
That goes for VegWeb health advice. ("Oh, help me, I have boils and I think my thumb fell off" - the answer should ALWAYS be "seek professional help.")
That goes for VegWeb pet nutrition. ("Oh, help me, my furry friend eats meat oh grossssss" - the answer probably should ALWAYS be "then do not keep carnivorous pets.")
That goes for VegWeb "why privilege one animal over another" conversations, although they are admittedly more provocative. ("Oh, I think my dogs should roam wild and leashless like nature intended..." - nature didn't really come up with pet species, they're anthropogenic and certainly in the places and quantities where they now exist. They require social, not natural, solutions. Is a vegan cat, for instance, a social solution? Yes, til it gets feline diabetes, dental caries, and experiences other symptoms of malnutrition. Then that pesky nature rears its head again.)
Dogs are carnivores, but they can subsist without animal proteins. It is inadvisable and even cruel to do that to a cat.
You have to work out your balance of morality and science, but you cannot make science go away because you do not like it.
I'm sorry if my tone seems harsh. I really am not angry, just... well, it is what it is. You would not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. You cannot make a vegan out of a cat. It's not the cat's moral commitment, nor in the cat's best interests... although yes, were it to be a wild cat, its lifespan might be comparable or shorter than that of a vegan cat. A well cared for domestic cat who lives its life inside only should (barring a terrible congenital defect or accident) survive longer.
You say you want to trust "professionals" about the "why privilege one animal over another" question; it's not at all clear to me which professionals you think we should approach about this. (I think we have to figure it out for ourselves.)
I don't understand any longer what you're advocating. You seem to react against my interpretation that you think vegan cats should be turned out on the street. But you also don't think people unwilling to support factory farms should keep cats. What should they do with their cats? There are more cats than homes, Duckalucky. If fewer people keep cats, that's more cats on the street.
I haven't denied any scientific findings; I even (I thought generously) provisionally accepted that carnivorous diets are more healthful for cats than vegan diets. I'm not trying to make any science go away.
You cannot make a vegan out of a cat.
Yes, you can. Again, I am personally acquainted with many vegan cats. You're claiming that those vegan cats (which seem in perfect health) would be healthier if they were not vegan. That may be so; I'm not denying it (nor am I yet convinced of it). They might be healthier, but there would be a much clearer drop in health for other animals -- namely, the rabbits, ducks, chickens, salmon, turkeys and cows subjected to imprisonment, torture, rape and slaughter. If we care only about cats, then of course the compassionate choice is to imprison, torture, rape and slaughter the other beings for the sake of the cats. But if we care about all animals, then the compassionate course is to cultivate a vegan diet. You might find yourself in the wonderful position that others have found themselves in; living with a healthy, happy cat while remaining cruelty-free.
Please don't call me a duffer. And all the people who buy cruelty-free food, of whom many are on this board, would certainly appreciate if you didn't do them the extreme and wanton insult of saying that they do so from "whim and vanity". No matter which side you're on here, surely this issue is more than that. I recognize that you and Dave are motivated by good intentions, can you pay me the same courtesy?
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