I know that We've had a few threads about gender roles, drag culture, etc., and folks like baypuppy have had some very informed and helpful input... but I wanted to share this news article and open up a discussion about gender roles, how Y'all feel about the inherent reinforcement of such roles that exist in U.S. culture (and in other places), and maybe some anecdotes/personal experiences regarding the reinforcement or deviation from these gender roles.

DISCUSS.

I think... that any culture who has a problem with boys liking pink, but thinks it's just effing FINE that I got impressed (in the military vs appreciative sense) into fucking 'home economics' vs far-more-interesting-and-useful 'wood shop' classes in junior high, to study such vitally crucial topics as the difference between a 'topcoat' of fingernail polish and a 'base coat' (sadly, I am not making this up!) without so much as a by-your-leave... well. THAT culture can just go STRAIGHT to time-out, abruptly followed by bed without dinner, as far as i'm concerned! <fluffs fur out haughtily like an affronted cat>

Gender, like so many other traits, isn't really a constant. It's more fluid. You can be more stereotypically female on Monday than on Wednesday. One act does not define this boy's gender.

If a little girl can wear a sundress, why couldn't a little boy wear one, too? If You take away all these bullshit notions of "psychological damage" and the need for therapy, what exactly IS the problem with someone wearing clothing that makes them feel good about themselves and is totally acceptable on another person with different genitals?

Hey CW, have you seen this Smithsonian article?

When Did Girls Start Wearing Pink?

I'm going to have a hard time logistically rationalizing not dressing my future children, regardless of sex, in dresses during infancy.

Dresses are SOOOO much easier to deal with when it comes to diaper changes and dressing in general.

In college, I wrote an essay about my childhood hair. Length of hair, to be exact. When I was young, I'd go through phases where I'd want my hair "too short" or "too long". I think I still kinda do. But what I realized during one of my college gender studies classes was I was playing with gender roles as well. In my preschool graduation picture, I couldn't find myself, I asked my dad to point me out... I was in a 'too short' stage in that life, apparently, and my FAVORITE piece of clothing was this button up Hawaiian shirt. I had mistaken myself for a boy..... I could go on about how I was "confused"  at earlier ages too.... like I used to shave my face with dad every morning or tried to pee standing up.....

These are parts of early childhood development, where children up to age 6 (socially it is generally accepted to some degree up to 6, I'd say realistically it is 8 or 10) or so, gender roles remain somewhat fluid, and it is normal for both sexes to explore them and try them on for size, figure out why girls peeing standing up may not be such a good idea, etc, FOR THEMSELVES. It creates a sense of empathy in children as well, because as adults they will still have a basic understanding to the 'other side' from these formative years.

This is an aside re: dresses in infancy

I actually hate putting dresses on my daughter. Maybe they're slightly easier for diaper changes, but it isn't worth it. When she was a newborn lump who just sat there, it was ok (actually, she was an itty bitty newborn in the hottest months of the year so she usually wore just a diaper back then). But as soon as she was attempting to crawl (5 months), they were terribly inhibiting for movement (her knees kept getting caught up in the material). So I never put them on her from about 5 months until she walked. Now she'll occasionally wear one, but the dress still can get in the way when quickly going from sitting on the floor to a standing position (and toddlers do this alot). So no, I don't think the old way is better, for either sex.

Her favorite color, BTW is blue and has been since before she was a year old. She wears almost no pink because I let her help me choose her clothing, and she always goes for the blue. My husband's favorite color is pink. He even has a pink shirt he wears proudly to work. Nothing to do with their gender or sexual orientation in the slightest.  

And agree with all the previous comments.

Wow, I find that article about the pink and blue colors so fascinating -- especially the part about how pink was initially a "boy's" color!

I think that when I have kids someday I'll dress them in a gender-neutral way; I find the traditional baby clothes somewhat boring.

And yeah, of course I also agree with the idea that there's nothing wrong with a boy behaving in a 'feminine' way, or vice versa. I was once talking with some family members, and my aunt mentioned that she had a neighbor once who clothed her very young son in dresses; ugh, the immediate reaction from the rest of my family was so appalling. They all started shaking their heads and talking about how she was horrible for submitting him to such teasing... stuff about how "it's necessary for people to conform to society".

Why can't society be open to different ideas? Why do we just ACCEPT the system the way it is, as if there is no potential for change? Yes, "kids will be kids", I know, I know... but if children really do naturally tease people who are different, maybe leaving uncertain gender roles on the fringe of society is not the best response. Just like eating meat to please your acquaintances does not help to make being a vegetarian or vegan easier, perhaps we should be more courageous about acting in a way which is not the "norm" when it's something that we do not believe society should ridicule or simply disregard.

Letting your son know he can choose between pants and a dress? NOT a capital offense IMO. :P

I was thinking about this more last night, and I think that kid is much less likely to need therapy than if his parents told him to "man up" and wear blue and play football.  They're letting him be who he is, and that's what good parents do.  He's a lucky kid for having parents who will love and accept him no matter what.

Also, I really hate the mindset that you can turn a kid gay by exposing him to too much girly stuff.  People don't "turn gay", they are gay, or they're straight, or maybe they're a little bit of both.  You're not going to turn a straight boy gay by painting his toenails pink any more than you can turn a gay boy straight by making him wear blue.  (My son's room is purple.  Maybe he'll turn gay and prove me wrong ::)).

Regarding the article that hanashi linked, I remember when I was shopping for baby stuff before I had my son.  I didn't know whether I was having a boy or a girl, and even if I did, I wanted to have mostly neutral stuff so I could use it for any future kids as well.  And I was so disappointed at the limited selection of gender-neutral things.  There would be tons of pink stuff with flowers or butterflies or rainbows, and tons of blue stuff with dinosaurs or trucks or cartoony monsters, and the neutral stuff was either yellow with farm animals or plain white.  Is it really too much to ask to have more than one gender-neutral design to choose from?  I would have been happy with something as simple as stripes or polka dots in non-gender-specific colors.

CW, that's why whenever 'baby shopping' for friends, I always go with the PARENT's favorite colors. They're going to be the ones looking at the kid all the time, it may as well be in a color they like!!

Yeah, I see what You mean... Unfortunately, even if children wear the "right" things for their respective gender/sex, they'll still end up getting ridiculed for who they are--whatever norm-deviating behaviours they engage in otherwise will probably lead to bullying/ridicule, as long as society continues to reinforce the stereotypical gender roles.

It's very unfortunate.

And I agree. What an asshole. I wish people would stop fearing the possibility of their child being gay. Like someone said earlier in this thread, you don't "turn gay." If one is going to be gay then it doesn't matter what he/she plays with (or wears) as a kid.