Posted by cheerio on Feb 17, 2007 · Member since Jul 2006 · 70 posts
My friend's boyfriend insists that if you are vegan, you HAVE to be pro-life on the abortion issue.
I wasn't really sure how to respond.....
What do you make of that?
Posted by tanevab on Feb 17, 2007 · Member since Jan 2007 · 942 posts
Actually, the latest credible study (2005) printed by the JAMA is that fetuses don't feel pain until about 28 weeks.
At 23 weeks 15-20% of babies can survive a premature birth. This is according to The New England Journal of Medicine. I don't believe that that these babies can not feel pain.
I have been doing prenatal massage for some time now and I can tell you that fetuses from a very early stage react quite strongly to human touch, even through the mother. I have felt a fetus 'follow' my touch which is quite amazing.
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Posted by OperaChic on Feb 17, 2007 · Member since Jan 2007 · 661 posts
Amen, baypuppy. I am pro-knowledge & anti-ignorance. 8)
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Posted by little2ant on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Aug 2004 · 3055 posts
OUCH! Touchy subject.
It is ridiculous at any level to say that people who believe one thing MUST also believe another. We all believe things for different reasons, and at different levels. On this website, I think we all have one things in common: reducing animal consumption, and increasing plant based foods. I guess that's two things. That might be where the commonality stops. Sure, we are going to have other things in common with many other people, but let's not assume we are all going to think the same way like little factory-made vegans, and that some are hypocrites if we see things another way. One things I love about this site is the lack of a "Veganer than Thou" attitude.
People are vegan for different reasons-for some its not so much about the animals being killed, it is HOW they are killed, and how they lived before that. I, for one, am much more opposed to factory farming than I am to hunting wild animals. Although I would never hunt myself, I can sort of understand why some people do it.
Its also environment, health, and world hunger issues, etc......you can be a vegan and still think that a woman has a right to make decisions about her own body, AND not be a hypocrite.
Of course it is better to use birth control, but there are circumstances where you can't judge a woman for making a choice to have an abortion if it is the right thing in her mind for her to do. Maybe its not right for you, but you can't possibly empathize and make a moral decision for EVERY other woman in the world in EVERY situation, even if you are woman yourself.
To say that if abortion were illegal that only a few people would do it is ludicrous. Look at your morning paper and count the number of drunk-driving arrests, child porn. charges, and drug busts. Illegal, yet still a commonality.
If it were economically feasable, it might make sense to abort the fetuses of pregnant homeless animals before they end up out in the world homeless themselves and populating the world with more unwanted pets. Of course, not the first choice of solutions to animal overpopulation-that would be spaying and neutering. Not everyone always chooses the BEST solution to a problem.
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Posted by 7 on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Oct 2006 · 471 posts
Little2Ant, I think you have found the final answer to the initial question. Just because you believe one thing doesn't obligate you to believe anything else. However, I also think you went a little too far with this one. . .
To say that if abortion were illegal that only a few people would do it is ludicrous. Look at your morning paper and count the number of drunk-driving arrests, child porn. charges, and drug busts. Illegal, yet still a commonality.
Really? No one said these things don't or won't or wouldn't happen, but take a look at the numbers. Mainstream America tries to follow the law. Many people do 'trespass' the law in small ways, but having an illegal abortion is HUGE! Teenagers wouldn't have their parents forcing them into abortions, wives wouldn't have their husbands cornering them into having abortions (personally know several instances of both). It would be uncommon. When abortions were illegal, there were a few people that had them, but those numbers were tiny in comparison to the daily numbers now.
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Posted by Anonymous on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Dec 1969 · 11789 posts
Isn't it interesting that groups of people who have a belief in common may disagree on many things. I think it makes the world quite interesting. :)
My two cents:
I automatically feel a sense of revulsion when I think about a woman choosing to terminate her pregnancy. I believe I feel this way not just because of my sense of altruism (which I believe was born with), but because instinct tells me that me and those like me should propagate. It is very unnatural to have an abortion (or commit infanticide - which I find even more revolting but I'm not entirely sure if it's always a different issue). Which makes you wonder just why the heck people do it, anyway.
I am going to argue that, while abortion is wrong, it is different from murder (I don't think anyone has outright said "murder" but that tends to be the word that's used in abortion arguments). I think that to say abortion is different than murder is acceptable, as people will accept that taking life under certain circumstances is less than murder, i.e. self-defense, man slaughter, etc.
Women have been trying to control their families through out history. Chinese women drank lead, the Eskimos practice infanticide, pennyroyal tea was/is a known abortifacient, etc. There's quite a bit of information out there on how families have been controlled. Why did women control families in the past? Often times because they couldn't afford to feed their children. So, for the sake of the survival of themselves and their other children, they would terminate pregnancies (or commit infanticide).
So why do women want to have abortions today? In America at least, we have a wealth of social works programs that will insure that children will be fed, clothed, and receive access to medical care. There are also many families who, for various reasons, want to adopt children. And yet women commit this act that is so contradictory to their nature. I think that for some reason, there is something that sparks some sort of survival instinct. Granted, there will always be those women who could give a damn less about life in general (another issue...ugh) but I think that most women do not take the decision lightly. I think that the best thing to do is to figure out why women are still having abortions, and try to fix whatever issues that are prompting them to make the decision.
Posted by little2ant on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Aug 2004 · 3055 posts
It would be uncommon. When abortions were illegal, there were a few people that had them, but those numbers were tiny in comparison to the daily numbers now.
MORE uncommon, maybe, but it would still happen, and it would be unsafe for those who chose to do it. And unfair for someone who wanted to have the procedure but didn't know of a place to go do it.
There would also be SOOOO many more unwanted and unprovided for children. You can't say just put them up for adoption-that is not always the default alternative for everyone. Someone challenged me on this the other day-and I think she said there have been 50 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. Not sure if that's true, but at any rate, that's a TON of unwanted children. I agree that it is too bad that the parents didn't choose birth control instead, but they didn't. If only everyone could be so smart!
What about people who do use birth control because they absolutely in no way want to bring children into the world and the birth control fails? Should the rule be that if you don't want kids, you aren't allowed to have sex?
Gosh, I thought for sure my last paragraph was the part that would be considered over the line (aborting animal fetuses)!
I respect your opinion and can see why you feel that way :), I just don't agree.
So how's the bunny doing, carmenmichelle? ;)
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Posted by 7 on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Oct 2006 · 471 posts
there have been 50 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. Not sure if that's true, but at any rate, that's a TON of unwanted children.
There wouldn't be that many children! If abortion weren't there as a simple go-to, people would be more careful. There are a huge number of not only young girls, but women also, that have abortion after abortion. . .many have several within the time it would take to complete one pregnancy (this I know to be fact), that does not make the numbers. . .the amount of abortions does not equal the number of children. . .and I don't see so many being unwanted. Many are inconvenient, but they are wanted, by someone. Most abortions happen because it's an easy way out. Most people who don't think first, don't because they don't see potential consequences. Were there consequences. . .more people would think about what they're potentially getting themselves into.
Quote:
And unfair for someone who wanted to have the procedure but didn't know of a place to go do it.
IF they closed all the McDonald's, would it be unfair to the people that want hamburgers for their children? Since when does want weigh greater than life?
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Posted by Fluffy on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Feb 2007 · 6 posts
your boyfriend must be stoked that he caused all this! it's a good debate and i'm sort of going to stay out of it since i am pro-choice and i eat honey and wear wool. (personally, i think bees might actually like to make honey. and where i come from, the sheep are happy to shed their wool in the summertime.)
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Posted by 7 on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Oct 2006 · 471 posts
i think bees might actually like to make honey.
They do, but they like to make it for their own little baby bees.
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Posted by 7 on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Oct 2006 · 471 posts
My apologies Fluffy. The above sounded kinda harsh and I didn't mean it that way. And, of course we know how the bee community works (it's not actually their baby bees, etc. . .) Pardon me, please. . .and welcome to the board. There actually aren't any meanies here, but you must beware, occasionally, the masked omni shows up (we all know it's Dave behind the mask, though). ;)
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Posted by little2ant on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Aug 2004 · 3055 posts
IF they closed all the McDonald's, would it be unfair to the people that want hamburgers for their children? Since when does want weigh greater than life?
Yes, I think it would be unfair if the government closed down all the McDonald's. Its called free enterprise. If the MCDs closed because there was no demand for their food any more, that would be great. Although I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY disagree with the practices, ethics, and food of McDs, I believe they have a right to their business and people of course have a right to eat however they want, as disgusting as it may be.
What if the government decided to stop allowing fruits and vegetables to be grown because they thought it was unfair to kill all those fruits and vegetables for dinner, and you WANTED to eat your veggies? How would you feel? We cannot all succumb to the beliefs of one person or one governing body. It's very dangerous when we start allowing or wanting the government to make decisions about personal choice and human rights for everyone.
Does the government support a dairy/meat based diet for Americans? YES! Are we allowed to not eat meat and dairy? YES! Thank goodness we are allowed to make choices in this country.
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Posted by Anonymous on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Dec 1969 · 11789 posts
I just wanted to add a thing or two to this topic. As for me personally, I do not think my own life is more valuable then an animals life. That is part of what makes me vegan. I do not think that us "humans", though maybe smarter the other animal species, have the right to kill and wipe out other animals (some to the point of extinction). Who is it that decided that "man" was more important then a cow, chicken or a pig? Some book written a few thousand years ago when they did not know why it rained? I am ultra liberal, pro choice, and anti-war. I don't believe in "collateral damage" of living humans (and animals) caused by war, and by those that start them. Funny how those that stand up shout the loudest about "all life is sacred" think that dead civilians are "justified" during war. I thought "all life" meant....ummmm...ALL LIFE!
I don't think that replying to every post and repeating the argument for or against abortion will change ANYONE'S mind. It's just not going to to happen. If you don't believe in abortion, and it goes against your own principles...then DON'T have one! I don't think any women alive that has had one made the decision with a "smile" on her face. Some regret, some move on.
There are thousands of places to debate abortion here on the internet. Here, if you want to debate for or against, I'll help point you in the right direction: http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&q=abortion I just hope we can move forward, and leave this very personal topic for another place to be argued for or against. This is just not the place for it. That's how i feel at least!
So, anyway.....I'm about to head out...The weather here in Paris is quite nice. It was warm and sunny today...I'm about to leave my hotel and go play. How's the weather where you live? Anyone?
Posted by little2ant on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Aug 2004 · 3055 posts
Thank you Dave! I am ready to move on as well, and wish I had gone with my first instinct to stay out of this one! :-X
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Posted by little2ant on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Aug 2004 · 3055 posts
Oh, and CHeerio, I hope you at least have some useful information to respond to the guy, either way! :)
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Posted by tanevab on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Jan 2007 · 942 posts
Bleeping cold and about a foot of snow on the ground. We are supposed to get a heat wave tomorrow so I hope some of the snow melts.
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Posted by ungreen on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Jan 2004 · 152 posts
.
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Posted by katzenfreund on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Oct 2006 · 245 posts
Dave, I totally agree with you. And I also agree, this is not the place to argue about this, so that'll be my last post on this thread ;)
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Posted by majicka414 on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Oct 2006 · 427 posts
I'm completely pro-choice.
What I think would be a great "help" in lowering unplanned/unwanted pregnancy rates is low-cost (or even sliding-scale) and wide availability of birth control and women's health services for ALL WOMEN.
Do you have any idea that birth control pills cost $54.00 a month? I dont know about you guys but at 16, 17 yrs of age $54 was ALOT for me to shell out a month, nevermind if you don't have health insurance, now you have to shell out $100-$150 for the doc visit!
..even if you HAVE health insurance..most don't cover the pill.. (but they will cover abortions, and viagra).
And whomever commented on abortions for animals..it can be done..it's usually an abortion/spay.
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Posted by 7 on Feb 18, 2007 · Member since Oct 2006 · 471 posts
Yes, I think it would be unfair if the government closed down all the McDonald's. Its called free enterprise. If the MCDs closed because there was no demand for their food any more, that would be great. Although I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY disagree with the practices, ethics, and food of McDs, I believe they have a right to their business and people of course have a right to eat however they want, as disgusting as it may be.
I by no means want to start another debate, but to simply acknowledge that I just don't understand you at all, little2ant. I know that when someone wants to believe something, they will see nothing else, there's a lot of that going on here with this thread. Peace to all, but I just really don't understand alot of this reasoning. Upon acknowledging and accepting that, I have no choice but to let it be. . .
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Posted by tanevab on Feb 19, 2007 · Member since Jan 2007 · 942 posts
Sorry, I was going to let it go but there is extremely fairly priced BC out there for all women. It is called planed parenthood. I used it for years when I was younger and didn't have insurance. I was in college and making hardly any money. I paid 50$ for my yearly exam and that also included a fasting blood test, and an STD workup. After that I paid 10$ for my pills and if I didn't have the 10 that day they would just bill me for the balance. There may need to be more advertising for planned parenthood but to say there isn't cheap alternatives out there is false. And lets not forget you can get condoms for around a dollar each. I think almost any teenager has a dollar. Sorry I'm off my soap box now :-X
Actually, the latest credible study (2005) printed by the JAMA is that fetuses don't feel pain until about 28 weeks.
At 23 weeks 15-20% of babies can survive a premature birth. This is according to The New England Journal of Medicine. I don't believe that that these babies can not feel pain.
I have been doing prenatal massage for some time now and I can tell you that fetuses from a very early stage react quite strongly to human touch, even through the mother. I have felt a fetus 'follow' my touch which is quite amazing.
Amen, baypuppy.
I am pro-knowledge & anti-ignorance.
8)
OUCH! Touchy subject.
It is ridiculous at any level to say that people who believe one thing MUST also believe another. We all believe things for different reasons, and at different levels. On this website, I think we all have one things in common: reducing animal consumption, and increasing plant based foods. I guess that's two things. That might be where the commonality stops. Sure, we are going to have other things in common with many other people, but let's not assume we are all going to think the same way like little factory-made vegans, and that some are hypocrites if we see things another way. One things I love about this site is the lack of a
"Veganer than Thou" attitude.
People are vegan for different reasons-for some its not so much about the animals being killed, it is HOW they are killed, and how they lived before that. I, for one, am much more opposed to factory farming than I am to hunting wild animals. Although I would never hunt myself, I can sort of understand why some people do it.
Its also environment, health, and world hunger issues, etc......you can be a vegan and still think that a woman has a right to make decisions about her own body, AND not be a hypocrite.
Of course it is better to use birth control, but there are circumstances where you can't judge a woman for making a choice to have an abortion if it is the right thing in her mind for her to do. Maybe its not right for you, but you can't possibly empathize and make a moral decision for EVERY other woman in the world in EVERY situation, even if you are woman yourself.
To say that if abortion were illegal that only a few people would do it is ludicrous. Look at your morning paper and count the number of drunk-driving arrests, child porn. charges, and drug busts. Illegal, yet still a commonality.
If it were economically feasable, it might make sense to abort the fetuses of pregnant homeless animals before they end up out in the world homeless themselves and populating the world with more unwanted pets. Of course, not the first choice of solutions to animal overpopulation-that would be spaying and neutering. Not everyone always chooses the BEST solution to a problem.
Little2Ant, I think you have found the final answer to the initial question. Just because you believe one thing doesn't obligate you to believe anything else. However, I also think you went a little too far with this one. . .
To say that if abortion were illegal that only a few people would do it is ludicrous. Look at your morning paper and count the number of drunk-driving arrests, child porn. charges, and drug busts. Illegal, yet still a commonality.
Really? No one said these things don't or won't or wouldn't happen, but take a look at the numbers. Mainstream America tries to follow the law. Many people do 'trespass' the law in small ways, but having an illegal abortion is HUGE! Teenagers wouldn't have their parents forcing them into abortions, wives wouldn't have their husbands cornering them into having abortions (personally know several instances of both). It would be uncommon. When abortions were illegal, there were a few people that had them, but those numbers were tiny in comparison to the daily numbers now.
Isn't it interesting that groups of people who have a belief in common may disagree on many things. I think it makes the world quite interesting. :)
My two cents:
I automatically feel a sense of revulsion when I think about a woman choosing to terminate her pregnancy. I believe I feel this way not just because of my sense of altruism (which I believe was born with), but because instinct tells me that me and those like me should propagate. It is very unnatural to have an abortion (or commit infanticide - which I find even more revolting but I'm not entirely sure if it's always a different issue). Which makes you wonder just why the heck people do it, anyway.
I am going to argue that, while abortion is wrong, it is different from murder (I don't think anyone has outright said "murder" but that tends to be the word that's used in abortion arguments). I think that to say abortion is different than murder is acceptable, as people will accept that taking life under certain circumstances is less than murder, i.e. self-defense, man slaughter, etc.
Women have been trying to control their families through out history. Chinese women drank lead, the Eskimos practice infanticide, pennyroyal tea was/is a known abortifacient, etc. There's quite a bit of information out there on how families have been controlled. Why did women control families in the past? Often times because they couldn't afford to feed their children. So, for the sake of the survival of themselves and their other children, they would terminate pregnancies (or commit infanticide).
So why do women want to have abortions today? In America at least, we have a wealth of social works programs that will insure that children will be fed, clothed, and receive access to medical care. There are also many families who, for various reasons, want to adopt children. And yet women commit this act that is so contradictory to their nature. I think that for some reason, there is something that sparks some sort of survival instinct. Granted, there will always be those women who could give a damn less about life in general (another issue...ugh) but I think that most women do not take the decision lightly. I think that the best thing to do is to figure out why women are still having abortions, and try to fix whatever issues that are prompting them to make the decision.
It would be uncommon. When abortions were illegal, there were a few people that had them, but those numbers were tiny in comparison to the daily numbers now.
MORE uncommon, maybe, but it would still happen, and it would be unsafe for those who chose to do it. And unfair for someone who wanted to have the procedure but didn't know of a place to go do it.
There would also be SOOOO many more unwanted and unprovided for children. You can't say just put them up for adoption-that is not always the default alternative for everyone.
Someone challenged me on this the other day-and I think she said there have been 50 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. Not sure if that's true, but at any rate, that's a TON of unwanted children. I agree that it is too bad that the parents didn't choose birth control instead, but they didn't. If only everyone could be so smart!
What about people who do use birth control because they absolutely in no way want to bring children into the world and the birth control fails? Should the rule be that if you don't want kids, you aren't allowed to have sex?
Gosh, I thought for sure my last paragraph was the part that would be considered over the line (aborting animal fetuses)!
I respect your opinion and can see why you feel that way :), I just don't agree.
So how's the bunny doing, carmenmichelle? ;)
there have been 50 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. Not sure if that's true, but at any rate, that's a TON of unwanted children.
There wouldn't be that many children! If abortion weren't there as a simple go-to, people would be more careful. There are a huge number of not only young girls, but women also, that have abortion after abortion. . .many have several within the time it would take to complete one pregnancy (this I know to be fact), that does not make the numbers. . .the amount of abortions does not equal the number of children. . .and I don't see so many being unwanted. Many are inconvenient, but they are wanted, by someone. Most abortions happen because it's an easy way out. Most people who don't think first, don't because they don't see potential consequences. Were there consequences. . .more people would think about what they're potentially getting themselves into.
IF they closed all the McDonald's, would it be unfair to the people that want hamburgers for their children? Since when does want weigh greater than life?
your boyfriend must be stoked that he caused all this! it's a good debate and i'm sort of going to stay out of it since i am pro-choice and i eat honey and wear wool. (personally, i think bees might actually like to make honey. and where i come from, the sheep are happy to shed their wool in the summertime.)
i think bees might actually like to make honey.
They do, but they like to make it for their own little baby bees.
My apologies Fluffy. The above sounded kinda harsh and I didn't mean it that way. And, of course we know how the bee community works (it's not actually their baby bees, etc. . .) Pardon me, please. . .and welcome to the board. There actually aren't any meanies here, but you must beware, occasionally, the masked omni shows up (we all know it's Dave behind the mask, though). ;)
IF they closed all the McDonald's, would it be unfair to the people that want hamburgers for their children? Since when does want weigh greater than life?
Yes, I think it would be unfair if the government closed down all the McDonald's. Its called free enterprise. If the MCDs closed because there was no demand for their food any more, that would be great. Although I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY disagree with the practices, ethics, and food of McDs, I believe they have a right to their business and people of course have a right to eat however they want, as disgusting as it may be.
What if the government decided to stop allowing fruits and vegetables to be grown because they thought it was unfair to kill all those fruits and vegetables for dinner, and you WANTED to eat your veggies? How would you feel? We cannot all succumb to the beliefs of one person or one governing body. It's very dangerous when we start allowing or wanting the government to make decisions about personal choice and human rights for everyone.
Does the government support a dairy/meat based diet for Americans? YES! Are we allowed to not eat meat and dairy? YES! Thank goodness we are allowed to make choices in this country.
I just wanted to add a thing or two to this topic. As for me personally, I do not think my own life is more valuable then an animals life. That is part of what makes me vegan. I do not think that us "humans", though maybe smarter the other animal species, have the right to kill and wipe out other animals (some to the point of extinction). Who is it that decided that "man" was more important then a cow, chicken or a pig? Some book written a few thousand years ago when they did not know why it rained? I am ultra liberal, pro choice, and anti-war. I don't believe in "collateral damage" of living humans (and animals) caused by war, and by those that start them. Funny how those that stand up shout the loudest about "all life is sacred" think that dead civilians are "justified" during war. I thought "all life" meant....ummmm...ALL LIFE!
I don't think that replying to every post and repeating the argument for or against abortion will change ANYONE'S mind. It's just not going to to happen. If you don't believe in abortion, and it goes against your own principles...then DON'T have one! I don't think any women alive that has had one made the decision with a "smile" on her face. Some regret, some move on.
There are thousands of places to debate abortion here on the internet.
Here, if you want to debate for or against, I'll help point you in the right direction:
http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&q=abortion
I just hope we can move forward, and leave this very personal topic for another place to be argued for or against. This is just not the place for it. That's how i feel at least!
So, anyway.....I'm about to head out...The weather here in Paris is quite nice. It was warm and sunny today...I'm about to leave my hotel and go play. How's the weather where you live? Anyone?
Thank you Dave! I am ready to move on as well, and wish I had gone with my first instinct to stay out of this one! :-X
Oh, and CHeerio, I hope you at least have some useful information to respond to the guy, either way! :)
Bleeping cold and about a foot of snow on the ground. We are supposed to get a heat wave tomorrow so I hope some of the snow melts.
.
Dave, I totally agree with you.
And I also agree, this is not the place to argue about this, so that'll be my last post on this thread ;)
I'm completely pro-choice.
What I think would be a great "help" in lowering unplanned/unwanted pregnancy rates is low-cost (or even sliding-scale) and wide availability of birth control and women's health services for ALL WOMEN.
Do you have any idea that birth control pills cost $54.00 a month? I dont know about you guys but at 16, 17 yrs of age $54 was ALOT for me to shell out a month, nevermind if you don't have health insurance, now you have to shell out $100-$150 for the doc visit!
..even if you HAVE health insurance..most don't cover the pill.. (but they will cover abortions, and viagra).
And whomever commented on abortions for animals..it can be done..it's usually an abortion/spay.
Yes, I think it would be unfair if the government closed down all the McDonald's. Its called free enterprise. If the MCDs closed because there was no demand for their food any more, that would be great. Although I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY disagree with the practices, ethics, and food of McDs, I believe they have a right to their business and people of course have a right to eat however they want, as disgusting as it may be.
I by no means want to start another debate, but to simply acknowledge that I just don't understand you at all, little2ant. I know that when someone wants to believe something, they will see nothing else, there's a lot of that going on here with this thread. Peace to all, but I just really don't understand alot of this reasoning. Upon acknowledging and accepting that, I have no choice but to let it be. . .
Sorry, I was going to let it go but there is extremely fairly priced BC out there for all women. It is called planed parenthood. I used it for years when I was younger and didn't have insurance. I was in college and making hardly any money. I paid 50$ for my yearly exam and that also included a fasting blood test, and an STD workup. After that I paid 10$ for my pills and if I didn't have the 10 that day they would just bill me for the balance. There may need to be more advertising for planned parenthood but to say there isn't cheap alternatives out there is false. And lets not forget you can get condoms for around a dollar each. I think almost any teenager has a dollar. Sorry I'm off my soap box now :-X
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