Focus on Weight vs. Focus on Health?
I posted some of this in the tattoo weight loss thread but it got me to thinking...
Why is it that so often the focus is on losing weight and not gaining health? Why do we equate thinness with health when it hasn't been scientifically proven at all? I've recently read a lot about this because I was a yo-yo dieter my whole life, losing and gaining the same 50 pounds over and over again. I picked up this book, "Rethinking Thin" by NY Times Science writer, Gina Kolata (rhymes with Pina Colada, how awesome is that!?) and it basically taught me that every person has a "setpoint" weight that our bodies really want us to weigh and it's next to impossible to stray from that weight by more than 10-20 pounds in either direction. Some people are naturally skinny and some people are naturally heavier. The focus should be on health, not weight. If you're fat and work out and eat well and you're still fat, guess what? Maybe your body just wants to be fat. I just feel like these campaigns against obesity are ridiculous...why not wage a war for HEALTH? For ALL PEOPLE? I know skinny people who are about to keel over, their bodies just metabolize calories more efficiently than mine does but if you compare our cardiovascular health and our blood work, I'm far more healthy.
I am now reading the best book called "Health at Every Size" by Linda Bacon, PHD (hehe on last name) which is basically about the same thing. Everyone who has been on a diet knows how freaking hard it is to keep the weight off. It's just something I totally relate to...I always felt like a failure for not being able to keep the weight off but really, I'm battling my genes. I can't win unless I dedicate my life to it, using up all my brainpower to eat less and stay skinny. It's too much. Also, the book talks about how there is no such thing as an ideal weight and about how the BMI is a totally ridiculous gauge of health. Also, people who yo-yo diet are actually a lot less healthy than people who are chubby. I don't know, there is tons of really good, well researched information in both books, I highly recommend them.
Rethinking Thin: http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Thin-Science-Loss-Realities/dp/0374103984
Health at Every Size: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933771585?ie=UTF8&ref_=sr_1_1&s=books&qid=1268969153&sr=1-1
Maybe this should be filed under rants but I had to get it off my chest tonight!
A side note: I love VegWeb for being such a great spot for delicious vegan recipes, all of them cholesterol free and a great many of them very good for you! Go VegWeb!
I'm 5'5'', and usually around 150. Never bothered me. I think some of the most beautiful people aren't some of the thinnest, necessarily. I do, however, get your point. I watched some of the Biggest Loser, and I was thinking, "they're really not spending enough time teaching these people how to actually change to a healthy lifestyle." It just seemed like exercise for the sake of losing weight, not for health issues?
This thread went from being empowering to making me sad.
I hope I did not contribute to this. I think perhaps I don't have a good enough world view to have a non-biased comment. Where I live, I am constantly made fun of for running and being vegan. Most people I know that are overweight are multiple hundreds of pounds overweight, and I know a lot of people who are dying from heart problems in their 40s and 50s. To me, fat does not equal fit. I have never seen it once in my life. But I don't know enough people.
So, I apologize if I have offended anyone, and I hope that I'm representing what I feel adequately. In my life, I either see 300 pound people, or 80 pound models on the internet and magazines. I don't really know much of a middle--which has contributed to some really messed up body issues in my life. I don't have the best viewpoint, so I probably don't have the most well rounded opinion.
WML: I really like how you say that it's your body for you, not for anyone to judge. I'm sorry if it sounds like I am judging, I was just trying to show an example of how I would try to quickly "size up" someone to see if I'd like to date them. But seeing as I'm not trying to date, I will shut up!
I try to think like...I don't ever want to say something to myself that I wouldn't say to a friend. Like, I would never call a friend fat and ugly and so I'm not doing that to myself, either.
Nice =)
I just thought of it as I was telling myself what I'm doing is worthless and easy and success wasn't actually an accomplishment, and realized I shouldn't say that, since I wouldn't tell someone else that. Even if I'm just nice to some people to not hurt them, I should be nice to myself for the same reason. Also maybe I shouldn't think about vegweb while working...haha.
p.s. Amy, you rock!!
aww thank you :)
This thread went from being empowering to making me sad.
why?
I haven't read either book, but I do like the idea that weight is not a definite measurement of health. What I do worry is that people would use this as evidence that they don't need to change. I live in the Mid West. A few years back a lady's megazine rated Peoria as the most unhealthy city in the US for a woman to live it, based on various statistics. It is rare for me to be in pubic and see a 30+ person that is not borderline morbidly obese, if not morbidly obese. The thing is that people don't see to know what normal is anymore. I have seen normal-looking women who have been accused of having some sort of eating disorder, because people here generally have no idea what normal is. I know when I went vegan and lost weight, I had people hounding me when I was still morbidly obese that I was getting too skinny.
Once again I have weight to lose, but I don't even own a scale. I am just trying to be more active, make better food choices, and gain control of my health. Weight loss is only one part of that. I think we focus too much on weight in our society and forget about other things, but it still is a component of health. I don't think we should all be 6 ft tall and weigh 110 pounds, but I cringe when I hear people say that their bodies were designed to be overweight and then continue to live an unhealthy lifestyle because there is nothing they can do about it anyway. I'm assuming that isn't the message of these books, but it does come across that way from some of this discussion.
No one has the right to judge anyone on the basis of anything. Health is multifactorial, and weight is only one of the many measures of it. Weight cannot be ignored as one indicator of general health, but I agree that our society puts to much weight on weight.
This thread went from being empowering to making me sad.
why?
The book promotes "lifestyle changes" (healthy eating & increasing movement) over "dieting" (getting thin). It's about perspective and how people who get fit by making lifestyle changes are healthier than people who yo-yo diet. But the comments here value thinness more than lifestyle. The comments jump to the extremes as justification to reject the notion of lifestyle and accept the notion of thinness equals goodness and health (que eating disorders).
This thread went from being empowering to making me sad.
why?
The book promotes "lifestyle changes" (healthy eating & increasing movement) over "dieting" (getting thin). It's about perspective and how people who get fit by making lifestyle changes are healthier than people who yo-yo diet. But the comments here value thinness more than lifestyle. The comments jump to the extremes as justification to reject the notion of lifestyle and accept the notion of thinness equals goodness and health (que eating disorders).
I will have to disagree. If you go back and look at rsw's comments and mine, we both say that thinness does NOT equal health (he messed this up originally, then fixed it). I've seen plenty of skinny college aged girls that couldn't run a mile. Nobody on this thread said that skinny=healthy.
I live in the Mid West. A few years back a lady's megazine rated Peoria as the most unhealthy city in the US for a woman to live it, based on various statistics. It is rare for me to be in pubic and see a 30+ person that is not borderline morbidly obese, if not morbidly obese. The thing is that people don't see to know what normal is anymore. I have seen normal-looking women who have been accused of having some sort of eating disorder, because people here generally have no idea what normal is. I know when I went vegan and lost weight, I had people hounding me when I was still morbidly obese that I was getting too skinny.
I'm so glad someone else from the Midwest commented on this. I have no idea what "normal" looks like, either. People ask my boyfriend and me if we are on methamphetamines all the time (as if that's any of their business! ;)), because the only way people are thin around here is if they're on drugs. If they're not, they are morbidly obese. We are both within our healthy BMI range, both very active and vegan. We get a little tired of being called out as different from everyone.
I actually think this thread has opened my eyes to a lot of things, and one of them is that definitions of overweight vary considerably. When someone said 5'5", 150 pounds as an example of possibly being overweight, I thought that sounded perfectly healthy and normal. So, I think this should be swinging back to empowering, as in there isn't just one example of what's healthy and beautiful. We can represent "normal" and healthy from so many bodies and lifestyles.
I'm so glad someone else from the Midwest commented on this. I have no idea what "normal" looks like, either. People ask my boyfriend and me if we are on methamphetamines all the time (as if that's any of their business! ;)), because the only way people are thin around here is if they're on drugs. If they're not, they are morbidly obese. We are both within our healthy BMI range, both very active and vegan. We get a little tired of being called out as different from everyone.
I actually think this thread has opened my eyes to a lot of things, and one of them is that definitions of overweight vary considerably. When someone said 5'5", 150 pounds as an example of possibly being overweight, I thought that sounded perfectly healthy and normal. So, I think this should be swinging back to empowering, as in there isn't just one example of what's healthy and beautiful. We can represent "normal" and healthy from so many bodies and lifestyles.
I grew up in California, and I was on the heavier side of normal when I finished high school. Unfortunately my sister was always considered one of the "fat kids." Here I would have been considered a skinny kid, and she would have been considered normal. Driving by the high school in the afternoon saddens me. I hate to see young people start out with that against them.
I have a friend, who I love dearly, who is about 5 ft tall and her "goal" is to wear a size 12. She is now diabetic and has many health issues. She doesn't need to be supermodel thin, but she has no idea that a 12 at her height is still obese. Her older children are morbidly obese as well. It is so sad. She honestly thinks the kids are healthy and that they are just taking after their father. I personally have no desire to be a stick or to sacrifice strength and health for being slender. I do refuse to believe that I am genetically predisposed to be overweight and/or unhealthy. I don't want to follow the footsteps of my father who died at the age of 56 of a massive, unexpeted heart attack secondary to his diabetes. Taken out of context, most anything can be used to justify an unhealthy lifestyle, but I know that at least in my small little world people read the headlines (not the actual books) that say being slightly overweight may be good for them, and then they decide they are fine as is. It just really saddens me.
Since my father survived a heart attack one year ago I have focused alot more on my health. Several people in my family have had heart and cancer issues. I feel better and have more strength and endurance than I have had since I was a kid. It's nice not to feel sick and tired all of the time. I find it confusing when people tell me "You're skinny, you don't have to work out." That's such a silly thing to say. If I want to be healthy and have my body age well then of course I need to be active.
One girl I volunteer with at a farm sanctuary some would consider to be overweight. But she is more active than I am and eats healthy. I find it strange that the same people that would tell me I don't need to workout would tell her she needs to.
I haven't read either book, but I do like the idea that weight is not a definite measurement of health. What I do worry is that people would use this as evidence that they don't need to change.
I was wondering that same thing. People seem to really like making excuses so they can be lazy and unhealthy.
My fiance likes to complain about his weight while sitting at the computer all day and shoving pizza into his face. ::)
On a side note I do find fit men more attractive, mostly because it seems like they might enjoy doing fun outdoorsy stuff like I do.
As I'm writing a weight loss book, I keep wondering "Am I thin enough? Will people look at me and think 'She needs to lose 4 pounds?"
This is disturbing on a lot of levels.
I think it's naive to think that weight is not an indicator of health in many cases (BUT NOT ALL). I've never seen a 500 pound person at a marathon.
The book isn't making a case for a person being healthy at 500 pounds. You said that you don't think 5'5" is overweight, but the height-weight chart I was looking at says 5'5" women should be between 113 and 138 pounds. Medically speaking, that woman is overweight and considered by the establishment to be unhealthy.
Yet overweight is the first indicator of not being fit.
He goes on to say what fitness/weight level he finds attractive. We're talking about personal health, not fucking. Men seem to equate that the purpose of female health is so we can be attractive for them. He totally misses the point.
I haven't read either book, but I do like the idea that weight is not a definite measurement of health. What I do worry is that people would use this as evidence that they don't need to change.
The message of the book is pretty clear: it's about making healthy lifestyle choices instead of "dieting". The book is all about change, but with a health perspective basis rather than "get thin" perspective. The reaction to the message worries me.
I haven't read either book, but I do like the idea that weight is not a definite measurement of health. What I do worry is that people would use this as evidence that they don't need to change.
I was wondering that same thing. People seem to really like making excuses so they can be lazy and unhealthy.
My fiance likes to complain about his weight while sitting at the computer all day and shoving pizza into his face. ::)
On a side note I do find fit men more attractive, mostly because it seems like they might enjoy doing fun outdoorsy stuff like I do.
My response is exactly what HH said above. It isn't about "giving up", it's about making healthy choices that listen to our bodies natural queues of hunger and fullness. Some of us are so used to dieting that we have no clue when we're actually hungry or full. This resonates really deeply with me. I used to eat really lightly at meals, thinking I was being "good", only to pay for it with a binge a few days later and feel terribly guilty. Or sometimes I'd be really "good" for years and keep my weight way down, only to break it one day and be unable to stop eating because I'd been starving my body for so long to fit an "ideal" weight. I was tired of doing things like that, I want to accept my body as is and enjoy healthy food and healthy movement, something this book greatly encourages. All backed by research and science, unlike your typical "weight loss" fare. It's really empowering.
WML: I think you really hit on the heart of the problem, and it's labeling foods as "good" and "bad". All foods have calories, some just nourish our bodies more than others. That's no reason for a certain food to fall into one category or another. I am hoping that perhaps the book addresses this issue. It seems like Americans get so wrapped up in what foods we "should" and "shouldn't" eat, and we forget to enjoy our dining experiences. I think this could possibly be a huge contributing factor to our nation's health issues.
I think it's naive to think that weight is not an indicator of health in many cases (BUT NOT ALL). I've never seen a 500 pound person at a marathon.
The book isn't making a case for a person being healthy at 500 pounds. You said that you don't think 5'5" is overweight, but the height-weight chart I was looking at says 5'5" women should be between 113 and 138 pounds. Medically speaking, that woman is overweight and considered by the establishment to be unhealthy.
I think I am really confused then. Is it this thread that's upsetting you, or the "establishment?" I can't do anything about the establishment, I can only control the way I personally think. And I don't think that someone that size is overweight, especially since I have no idea how much muscle they have or how large their bone structure is or how active they are, etc. Shouldn't you find this as a relief, that the people on this forum, and VegWeb in general, seem to be accepting of many shapes and sizes? For instance, in the Boobs thread we talk about how different our bodies are and how we don't like this and do like that. Our shapes are all over the board, but we're still beautiful and all healthy women that feel comfortable with each other.
Since I have not read the book and I was only commenting from my own life experience, I do not feel like I can be discredited for simply saying that weight is sometimes an indicator of health. I guess I should probably even say size, and not weight, and this whole argument would make more sense. I have no idea how much I weight, or for that matter how much anyone I know weighs. I just know when I go to the grocery store and see someone my age (early 20s) so large that they have to use the rascal scooter to get their meat, I'm not going to put money down saying she's the epitome of health. I don't think that makes me judgmental or a bad person
Shouldn't you find this as a relief, that the people on this forum, and VegWeb in general, seem to be accepting of many shapes and sizes? For instance, in the Boobs thread we talk about how different our bodies are and how we don't like this and do like that. Our shapes are all over the board, but we're still beautiful and all healthy women that feel comfortable with each other.
I agree with VeganRun and we both agree with the initial message of this thread. I stated that I like women in "all shapes and sizes" but made the observation (and VeganRun agreed) the we (and perhaps others) find a greater attraction to our own body type. I even made a comment on the BOOBS thread that all types of boobs are appreciated. The continuing message here is focus on getting fit, not skinny. I get comments and teases all the time over being "too skinny" yet I'm in the middle of healthy in on the BMI charts. No one who is overweight gets near the comments about their weight like normal or thinner or leaner people. For some reason people think it's complimentary to say you're "too skinny" yet saying your "too fat" is insulting. That just underscores the misconception that skinny is the desired goal. People are far less likely to say "you look really fit" and "too fit" is never uttered. Also the BMI is not at all accurate as it totally ignores the muscle/fat ratio and is only accurate for the ideal, normal, model, whatever, body type.
For example I could have a lot less muscle and replace it with the same weight of fat and, since my height and weight would not change, my BMI would remain the same.
Society reflects the establishment and vice versa. I'm not upset by anyone individually or a specific statement, it's the part of the comments that reflect societal world-views on weight and fitness - which is probably why the author wrote the book in the first place. It's the way we all have been conditioned to think that's disturbing to me.
Exactly, HH. That was actually my point in saying that. Like, even though it's irrational, I still have those insecurities. I was raised with barbie dolls and seventeen magazine - and it takes a lot to shake that.
It's too bad we all can't just unconditionally love ourselves...but the more we move in that direction, even in very little steps, the better! Every little bit helps. :)
HH: I agree with all that you have said. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. These books sound interesting. Honestly I haven't read a single vegan weight loss book that focuses on weight alone and doesn't deal with other aspects of health. I have seen plenty of fad weight loss book that do though. We all know people that are stick thin but eat nothing but garbage and are far from being fit. Winning the genetic lotto doesn't make them any healthier than I am, per se. What I was trying to say is that for the vast majority of Americas, part of getting healthy will be losing weight. I type medical records for a living, and I find it distressing that doctors really only push exercise and caloric restriction but rarely discuss true health. All I was trying to say is that I cringed when I saw this thread, because I have many friends who think that they and their children are healthy are morbidly obese, chronically ill, diabetic, etc. Around here healthy is even used as an expression for being slightly plump. RSW made a very good point about BMI. While weight is one measure of health, it isn't the only one, and really isn't even a major one. I just am sick of people taking things like this out of context to mean that they are healthy when they clearly are not. I'd be the last one to put someone down because of their weight. It's just that their ignorance saddens me.
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