Honey
Posted by Allychristine on Jul 21, 2008 · Member since Dec 2007 · 15438 posts
Eating honey is not vegan.
Discuss.
I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!
you ARE the bee's knees!
i read in your supervegwebber thingie that you're a biologist. did i ever tell you that my major is/was biology?!
No, I didn't know that! Is the is/was part because you're considering changing majors? I was in Humboldt because Humboldt State University has a strong field school component, so to learn about bees, you go outside and look at bees in their natural environment. It was cool. The school had an Apis mellifera hive, but there were local solitary bees and my favorite, bumblebees. I mean, how freakin' cute is this gentle giant?
quite cute!
the "is/was" is because i'm not currently in school, but when i am able to afford to go back i will be continuing my biology degree. i was scheduled to go back to school in january 2008... but then i got into that awful car wreck that just wrecked everything. so now i cannot afford to go to school, but hopefully after my settlement i won't be struggling as much.
what do you do as a biologist? i've considered that path.
I don't really do that much biology work. I was hired at my job as a biologist, but I do more general science. I'm probably more chemisty focused than anything else now.
My simple answer is that bees are in the animal kingdom, and I don't use beings in the same kingdom as me.
When I went vegan, I never once had a second thought about honey.
I just knew it came from bees, and vegans didn't eat things that came from animals.
My simple answer is that bees are in the animal kingdom, and I don't use beings in the same kingdom as me.
When I went vegan, I never once had a second thought about honey.
I just knew it came from bees, and vegans didn't eat things that came from animals.
Hooray!! : )
I had no idea this was even up for debate until I read this thread. I just assumed it was a no-no. Of course, that may be because I'm the only vegan I know.
I'm the only vegan I know.
... in real life. You now have all of us, cyber-wise. :)
I had no idea this was even up for debate until I read this thread. I just assumed it was a no-no.
It's weird, isn't it? I like your assumption.
I didn't feel like starting a new thread, but I read this article in the newspaper today about an attack on some beehives that has potentially killed hundreds of thousands of bees - and though that fact is mentioned, the entire point of the article is financial. The act is referred to as 'vandalism', not animal cruelty, and the owners talk about the fact that they didn't have insurance, and how much it will cost them to replace.
All the while, I sit here quietly thinking to myself: but what about the beeees?
It's just such backwards logic. If someone drove a tank through an animal shelter and squashed a hundred puppies, people would care about the puppies as much/more than the damaged shelter. Why not here?
Article : http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10588599
If you read through this thread (I think, or another honey thread - we've had plenty), there are some people who say that insects aren't animals. I don't even know what to say to that, because bees are clearly animals. So, pair that with another view I've seen, "the smaller they are, the less they count" and you arrive at why people don't care. I don't know what it would take to turn those perspectives around. They're present even on a vegan website.
As a short person, I resent the "the smaller they are, the less they count" mentality. ;)
me too!
It just makes me sad.
shouldn't this also extend to any vegetation sprayed with harmful pesticides resulting in the deaths of millions of "animals"? Under this assumption, isn't non-organic produce not vegan?
shouldn't this also extend to any vegetation sprayed with harmful pesticides resulting in the deaths of millions of "animals"? Under this assumption, isn't non-organic produce not vegan?
Technically, you're right (the same way that building a house on a field isn't vegan, or constructing a road, or using a computer......) but the point is, honey is a clear, undeniable animal product that's easy to avoid. There really isn't much of an excuse to eat it. Those other things are good to think about too, but not really relevant to the honey issue.
As a short person, I resent the "the smaller they are, the less they count" mentality. ;)
;D I don't make the rules, I just report them.
considering that honey bees are dying by the millions because of (among other things) the overuse of pesticides on crops, I think it relevant to the "honey" issue.
Building a house can be done ethically. It can be done without harming or killing many animals (albeit, I'm sure some wouldn't survive the change in their habitat) but that is a far cry from the deliberate and systematic widespread killing of insects/animals.
Equating the building of a house or the using of an appliance with the spraying of pesticides is illogical, and I feel annoyed you, KMK, are so quick to brush off what I have to share with such a simplistic and immature comparison.
I've priced it and the same produce that costs $1.50 conventionally costs about $6.00 organic at my hfs. Some people can eat less and make it organic, but some people are already scrimping as much as they can. When I was in college I had $12 a week for food. Organic wasn't an option. Well, produce in general wasn't an option. There's also the issue of availability. Some people don't have access to organic produce in order to make that choice in the first place.
I advocate organic for environmental and personal health issues, but I'm not prepared to say that someome who doesn't have access to garden space to grow their own or people who flat broke or people who are mandatorily on a college's cafeteria plan or people who don't have access to organic options aren't vegan.
I get your point and agree with the importance of organic choices, but I'm not ready to oust non-organic consumers from vegan-dom.
I get your point and agree with the importance of organic choices, but I'm not ready to oust non-organic consumers from vegan-dom.
i'm not either, i'm not about taking away the labels people want to put on themselves, it's not my job, nor do I really care, but i don't agree we should dismiss the consumption of organic products as irrelevant to a "vegan" lifestyle, that's all. It's interconnected, and needs to be considered.
I appreciate your well-thought response, HH. Thank you. It is an excellent point, as I have lived an economically-poor life for most of it and have had to abide by the "beggars can't be choosers" mentaility, but far too often, I think the "expense" of organic is used as an excuse to remain unconscious in the consequences of your (the general you, not personal you) consumer spending habits. The expense will never lower if we don't all band together and demand more ethical and conscious agricultural practices.
That is my point. I'm sorry if anyone got the idea that I would oust you from vegan-dom for eating conventional produce. That's not what I meant, if that's how it came across.
I don't think you were ousting anyone. I was just trying to be clear about my position. When I first started buying organic food it was before I was vegan. My primary consideration back then was that I didn't want the people who harvested my produce to be exposed to pesticide residue. That's a whole other layer.
Since I'm hella off topic from honey, anyway, pesticide residues are on the crops, but they also migrate into the environment and harm a bunch of animals. Or they are persistent. For example, DDT breaks down to DDE, DDD, etc., but it's not water soluble, so it stays in the first couple of feet of soil. If there's erosion during rain events there's an ongoing input of DDT consituents into the environment. It's still a problem and it's been banned since 1972. Where that comes into play is urban sprawl in SoCal. Developers are (or were, before the housing crash) ripping out orchards to build homes and are disturbing DDT-contaminated soil. UV breaks it down on the uppermost layer, but once the soil is disturbed, the game's on. Still. After all these years. Pesticides are scary things.
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