Insects are animals?
Posted by positively charged on Mar 14, 2010 · Member since Mar 2010 · 8 posts
I was under the impression that going vegan meant getting the animal products out of my diet. Where does honey and silk (not the soy milk, actual silk) come in to play?
Also, none of Trader Joe's products are animal tested, and I think for the most part they don't have animal ingredients (their brand has a label for this on the back), except stuff like the lip balm (beeswax).
Ally, Please. Films (to use one example) are not a necessity in life. If you know film is made as a result of animal suffering and still choose to support that industry you ARE making an exception to vegan ideals. Tires aren't a necessity and computers aren't a necessity (to use your examples). Yet it's okay to use them in your eyes because...you don't want to be inconvenienced by not using them? I am sure somewhere there are vegans who are more vegan than you who would think YOU are not a vegan if you continue to use those products. You ALL make exceptions for your own reasons in one way or another.
Ally, Please. Films (to use one example) are not a necessity in life. If you know film is made as a result of animal suffering and still choose to support that industry you ARE making an exception to vegan ideals. Tires aren't a necessity and computers aren't a necessity (to use your examples). Yet it's okay to use them in your eyes because...you don't want to be inconvenienced by not using them? I am sure somewhere there are vegans who are more vegan than you who would think YOU are not a vegan if you continue to use those products. You ALL make exceptions for your own reasons in one way or another.
I think what she meant is there is currently no vegan alternative for these things.
What if having a computer or car is necessary for your work, or where you live (too far to walk for groceries)? Even if a car isn't a necessity, by supporting public transportation of any form, you are partly paying for their new tires. If a person can meet all their needs by walking, kudos, but I have not come across such a situation.
Fauna: And film? Will you stop going to the movies if you know that boiled bones and skin make it possible to watch that movie? I'm thinking no.I'm thinking exceptions will be made for personal reasons. And I'm thinking it's okay if you still call yourself a vegan afterward.
And also, Fauna, are you saying that if someone IS close enough to the grocery store to walk but chooses to buy a car for the trek instead or that if someone has the choice between two jobs and one requires them to use plastics that contain animal by-products and the other one doesn't and they take the job with plastics that they shouldn't call themselves vegan because of it?
I know how ridiculous this argument is. My point is that looking down your nose at someone who has chosen to make an exception here and there (while making the distinction that those exceptions are not vegan, by the way - not trying to change the definition) while making your own exceptions for your own reasons is hypocritical.
Not really, I was just pointing out that a car or computer can be necessary for a person. Also, being close to a grocery store isn't enough... like you said, there's the job, but there's also the hospital, the DMV (for an ID and not a DL, since said mythical person doesn't have a car), your family/friends, the post office, etc... basically, i think modern society requires a person to use a wheeled vehicle at some point in there life. It is this type of minutiae where you're indirectly supporting something not vegan, but not much can be done to avoid it. It would simply be easier to replace whatever animal product is in the rubber/other materials.
But this is not honey. Or silk. Or wool. Society does not require you to have these things, nor does health (if a vegan had some odd cotton/polyester/rayon/everything but wool allergy and had to wear wool, that would be a different story IMHO). There are certain ingredients that are very easily avoided, but many vegans/vegetarians do not simply because they like these products or don't want to try the alternatives. In my opinion, that is different than a person who needs an animal-based/animal-tested medication to live, or in some weird hypothetical situation where it was absolutely impossible to avoid honey (in every single food, including somehow produce and dry grains, etc).
Insects are animals. They have nervous systems.
Vegans do not consume animal products (or the more practical definition, they avoid them when at all possible).
Insect products, then, are not vegan. A person who consumes insect products are not vegan. They might be reeaally close. But since veganism is solely defined by what is and isn't consumed, there is really no wiggle room here in terms of definition. If a vegan was "someone who followed a philosophy of doing the least harm" then I could see where we could argue all day about the ethical impact of honey, and really about every single form of animal product. By that token, someone could argue that honey is in sum not that harmful, but someone could also argue that a follower of said philosophy should only eat organic, locally grown, fair-trade, and only buy clothing where they know the factory conditions, etc etc. In that sense, "vegan" is actually simpler than a "philosophy of non-malevolence." While I have no doubt that many almost-vegan people strive to do least harm, that does not make them vegan.
Ally, Please. Films (to use one example) are not a necessity in life. If you know film is made as a result of animal suffering and still choose to support that industry you ARE making an exception to vegan ideals. Tires aren't a necessity and computers aren't a necessity (to use your examples). Yet it's okay to use them in your eyes because...you don't want to be inconvenienced by not using them? I am sure somewhere there are vegans who are more vegan than you who would think YOU are not a vegan if you continue to use those products. You ALL make exceptions for your own reasons in one way or another.
That is just a ridiculous statement... We live in a non vegan world and do our best... There are always going to be what if's... Trying to turn everyone into a hypocrite is just stupid and annoying... It is impossible to be 100% vegan 24/7 in every single aspect of the word... that's life
Yes, please.
I didn't say anything about "necessity."
/said it all
Ally, Please. Films (to use one example) are not a necessity in life. If you know film is made as a result of animal suffering and still choose to support that industry you ARE making an exception to vegan ideals. Tires aren't a necessity and computers aren't a necessity (to use your examples). Yet it's okay to use them in your eyes because...you don't want to be inconvenienced by not using them? I am sure somewhere there are vegans who are more vegan than you who would think YOU are not a vegan if you continue to use those products. You ALL make exceptions for your own reasons in one way or another.
That is just a ridiculous statement... We live in a non vegan world and do our best... There are always going to be what if's... Trying to turn everyone into a hypocrite is just stupid and annoying... It is impossible to be 100% vegan 24/7 in every single aspect of the word... that's life
And that was my point. Not everyone is perfetc and it IS hypocritical to point the finger at others while deciding that you'll make your own exceptions (be it watching films or feeding your cat meat, for example). I don't think that by using three beauty products with wax and honey and eating like a tenth of an egg a year warrants me being called some kind of poser because I identify as a vegan. For Ally to say "But what is the point in grouping yourself with a certain lifestyle that does not at all fit with your decisions?" is bullshit. My couple of exceptions do not cancel out all the good I do through my actions, my money, and the activism that I do and to say that somehow those few exceptions translate to me having a lifestyle that doesn't fit AT ALL with veganism? WTF?
I'm still not sure why you're so anxious to call yourself vegan. Is it because it's counterculture/trendy where you are? You don't seem to understand much about veganism, appear to care to learn, or concretely support your position. It seems it's more like a social thing you like telling other people.
I don't think anything I've said has indicated that I care what is trendy or has suggested I am not educated about veganism. I think you're just trying to be bitchy for the sake of being bitchy.
I don't think anything I've said has indicated that I care what is trendy or has suggested I am not educated about veganism. I think you're just trying to be bitchy for the sake of being bitchy.
You're basing your position that "vegan" is an irrelevant term on film. Film is not a self-examination of why you believe what you believe. It's a tangent that distracts from a discussion of what vegan means. From your posts, I don't get that you understand that vegans don't eat animal products. So, perhaps being "vegan" for you is more socially motivated than vegan motivated. When you've said aggressive things here, people have responded with considered posts, not name calling. Calling me a bitch doesn't explain anything except for maybe animal products make people moody.
JD: i kinda see where you're coming from and i was thinking about my earlier post... everyone is a hypocrite in some aspects... i'll call myself a vegan because that is what i pretty much am... i eat vegan all the way... and i freakin try my hardest otherwise... so fuck it... i know i'm not the most "religious" vegan but i try really hard... that is what i identify most with and try my hardest to be... ya i'm not perfect but i freakin try... maybe super vegan status will be reached someday... i don't even say it to be cool or whatever because it def isn't that "cool" at this point in time though more "trendy" than before i suppose... but i feel like sometimes this whole thing seems like a who can be the best vegan competition... it makes me sad because all you girls are so awesome! you probably just think i am some poser or something :(
aml: Her position is that vegan and vegetarian is synonymous. I don't understand how that's compelling. People who ate differently than vegetarians came up with a new word to describe themselves and now someone who is vegetarian decides that vegans don't have any right to their own word.
using three beauty products with wax and honey and eating like a tenth of an egg a year
and
i eat vegan all the way... and i freakin try my hardest otherwise... so fuck it... i know i'm not the most "religious" vegan but i try really hard... that is what i identify most with and try my hardest to be... ya i'm not perfect but i freakin try...
are different if you are continuing to learn from your nonvegan mistakes, and not intentionally doing them again. None of us are perfect. That's what I was getting at with:
Accidentally consuming/buying something, using something that has no other alternatives (computer, watching films, tires, etc.), needing medicine, and making a mistake are all completely different from knowing something comes from/was tested on an animal, and continuing to use it/contribute to the industry. It's so ridiculous that all these things get lumped into one.
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My couple of exceptions do not cancel out all the good I do through my actions, my money, and the activism that I do and to say that somehow those few exceptions translate to me having a lifestyle that doesn't fit AT ALL with veganism? WTF?
It doesn't cancel out your good actions, but it does not translate to a vegan lifestyle.
I love the term "vegan" and will whole-heartedly use it to easily express to others my dietary guidelines even if I'm not always the picture-perfect vegan. I don't like the idea that it is an exclusive club and you have to adhere to a firm set of rules 24/7 or you're deemed not worthy enough to wear the label. It's convenient and helps spread the word that we are out there and our numbers are growing. I'm not going to exclude myself from the group because I make an egg exception once a year for my birthday (sorry - I've yet to find a good vegan apple fritter) and have a short list of honey and wax products I feel okay about using. I just bought a used car with a leather interior - there were no other options for the particular make and model we wanted. I don't like it, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it and the fact that it drives me to vegan restaurants has got to count for something! I feel like the few exceptions I make in my diet and lifestyle are my own to deal with. My comments aren't directed at what anyone else said, per se. I'm just chiming in on how I feel on the subject!
That was my original post and from it you immediately declared that I was not worthy of calling myself vegan. My point since then was that we all have exceptions to the vegan ideals. Watching films even though you know film uses gelatin IS an exception. Killing bugs is an exception. Feeding your pets meat is an exception. Somehow in trying to get across the idea that we all have exceptions we are willing to make and that no one is perfect you've made the leap that I must be looking to be trendy and that I am uneducated and don't care to learn? I'm not seeing how you can drawn that conclusion so the only explanation I could come up with is that you are trying to be mean.
I understand, Honey (and Ally) that you are saying I shouldn't call myself vegan because I use three beauty products that contain honey and wax and I eat 1/10 of an egg a year even though I follow a very strict vegan diet at all other times and even though my lifestyle is one in which I promote and encourage vegan ideals. Please understand that I think that is ridiculous of you and I will continue to call myself vegan despite your opinion on the subject because I feel that I am far closet to being vegan than vegetarian.
Wait, wait, wait. I don't even think they use film for movies anymore? I think it's all digital. I don't use camera film. I don't kill bugs on purpose, and I don't feed my pet meat.
Yesssssss, I can still be in the elitist club.
::)
BUT SERIOUSLY
In the big picture, my point (question?) is why continue to eat that fritter, or use those bee products? I know there are great vegan donuts, because I've eaten them! I guess I haven't had an apple fritter, but you should try the Larsen donuts. Amazing.
Also, there are great cosmetic products that don't contain bee products. A lot of us have tried different ones, and the reviews are there in the loot forum.
I understand, Honey (and Ally) that you are saying I shouldn't call myself vegan because I use three beauty products that contain honey and wax and I eat 1/10 of an egg a year even though I follow a very strict vegan diet at all other times and even though my lifestyle is one in which I promote and encourage vegan ideals.
My boyfriend eats non-vegan maybe once a week to once a month, and follows a strict vegan diet the rest of the time. Is he vegan? No. I think there is no meaning to "strict vegan diet" if you are describing the portion of time where you don't eat animal products. A "strict vegan diet" is vegan all the time. It's like the joke about an omni saying "I'm vegetarian between meals!". Ok, maybe not that extreme, but nevertheless, 90% vegan eating does not mean a vegan person.
Also, you are not promoting/encouraging vegan ideals if you are knowingly consuming unnecessary animal products on a regular basis.
Vegan = not consuming animal products whenever possible. If this does not describe you, then you are not vegan.
"whenever possible" does not mean "unless I really like that lip balm" or "there was only a McDonalds on the highway."
I only use all natural products and unfortunately there aren't many out there that are TRULY all natural despite being called "organic or having the word "natural" on the label. I'm always reading ingredient labels to try new stuff and have succesfully replaced all but a few products with all natural vegan ones. I'll continue to keep looking.
As for the donut, the packaged vegan donuts I've tried are crap. My mom's overnighting me some from a real donut shop in Vegas that is supposed to have incredible vegan donuts this year.
I'm done trying to defend my level of veganism . I feel good about what I do and the amount of time, money, and thought I spend on promoting a kind, compassionate, and healthy lifestyle.
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