Help!!! Vegan frustration!!!
Ok, here's the story. I was over a friend's house helping her with cleaning her yard. After that, we sat down and had a few to drink. We got into a pretty "heated" talk about diet. My friend's hubby asked me why I became vegan. I explained diet reasons and a few other clothing issues (I have a skin allergy to wool and silk). He asked me how do I get some stuff from a vegan diet (vitamins ... blah blah blah). This is coming from a guy who used to lift weights and eats red meat like it's going out of style ..... And we got into a talk about clothing, and I said, "I would NEVER wear that!" After he showed me leather. I never had a problem with leather, but this time I did.
My question is, what do I tell someone like this how I get vitamins out of my diet, and why I do what I do? I just didn't know what to say. Eventhough I know WHY I do what I do.
This vegan thing is working on me, also. The more I diet like this, the more my life style becomes vegan. Eventhough, it was just diet reasons at first.
I totally understand... I avoid those topics with most people... we do preach to our parents but they want to hear about our diet (at least sometimes! we tend to talk about it all the time ::) )and they are open to trying some things out for health reasons...
I think being very well read on the subject and suggesting certain books to people helps. I think if they realize you didn't make an emotional decision but an INFORMED decision about your diet it packs more weight.
If knowing what their question about the diet is help to suggest a book. i.e. I suggested Skinny Bitch to my sister becuz I know she won't read the china study. Then I sent her a further reading list with about 10 books and a tiny bit on what each book covered... like one was about diet, one was about animals, one was about politics, one was about losing weight, etc. and she could choose what topic interested her.
some books mention all the reasons, but most are focused on a topic or two.
again I think showing someone that you have made a decision based on research (100 bucks says THEY HAVEN'T nor could they name 5 ingredients off on the packaging of what the last ate! Let alone know what those ingredients ARE!)
DH wants to make a T shirt that says, "VEGAN: I've research MY diet. Have you researched YOURS?"
Lastly, does the guy actually CARE how you get vitamins out of your diet? Ask him how he gets vitamins out of HIS diet! Can he tell you? Does he even know what vitamins he NEEDS? Do you know enough to tell him?
Are you informed enough to tell him that his protein intake make be disastrous to his health or that his drinking milk causes him to ingest hormones with EVERY sip. Again I avoid that kind of thing... but if someone wants it, I bring it. Lately, I've had two doctors back down on saying ANYTHING about a vegan diet. neither one was judgemental.... but yesterday I was in the ER (again) and one asked in a warning-like manner if i was getting "balanced proteins" since I was vegan... He was shocked when I knew the amino acid combos (by name) to make complete proteins... the doc said he "knew it in school... but forgot"
:D I have to say I was really proud of myself on that one!
BTW, DH is into power lifting and (even surprisingly to us) a lot of the top power-lifters are vegan! They are many vegan athlete, power-lifting and bodybuilding sites online as well.
I love that!!! ;D
DH wants to make a T shirt that says, "VEGAN: I've research MY diet. Have you researched YOURS?"
Let me know when he markets those--I want one :)
Also, way to tell off the doctor! It's hard not to get defensive when people hassle someone about veg*nism--nothing backs you up better than facts, especially ones that the *attacker* is supposed to know ;)
I want that shirt!
Thanks all. I'll keep all these ideas in mind if I get into it with him again.
I love that shirt idea!
It reminds me of this comic: http://www.happycow.net/humor_images/protein.gif
Too funny!
I want that shirt too... That cartoon is HILARIOUS! I love it... I think I'll put that on my MySpace....
just a quick response to defending a vegan diet intelligently:
I would highly recommend reading Dr. John McDougall's books on diet. He is a physician who has been dedicated to improving people's health with diets for decades. His books advocate an even stricter diet than i would follow (no oil, etc.), but they contain wonderful and convincing points about how a vegan diet is more than adequate, even without trying to supplement with vitamins or combine proteins. He talks about some of the history of misinformation, which is why people think they need to eat meat and dairy.
After reading his books when i first became a vegan 16 years ago, I have never used vitamins or really been concerned about getting enough nutrition. And i have been much healthier since (plus i have a very healthy 4 year old vegan daughter, and i never even took prenatals!)
Not bragging in the least, just saying to anyone who thinks a vegan diet is inadequate: Not at all!!! :)
I LOVE the shirt idea, tell us when he starts sellling them, seriously!
I think all of us encounter this sort of thing. I have no vegan friends. I live in a ranching community where branding is spectator sport not to be missed (it was sure easy for me to miss it). I can go out to eat when a good friend is cooking and will be very careful with what she does, but if others are cooking, they will "accidentally" slip animal products under my hashbrowns!!! Sorry folks, I am vegan primarily for my lupus and slipping me food that will make me sick is NOT a joke! I say that, but veganism has become about a lot more than just that.
Some of it is ignorance and some of it is guilt. I swear it is guilt. If you've see "Earthlings"...well every time someone buys a piece of dead cow it helps create a demand for that sort of abuse of other living creatures. I know that people who still eat meat are at least peripherally aware of the cruelty of the packing plant and feed lot, but CHOOSE to ignore it because THEY didn't commit these acts and besides (I have heard this a lot) cows make "good eatin'"!! Eww turns my stomach to type that, ugh! Just what is wrong with BBQ tofu, exactly?
It is also the pork board, the beef board, the chicken board, the milk board and the egg producers of America responsible for brain washing people into thinking that comsuming so many animal products is a necessity for health. You'll hear that a vegan diet is too difficult to follow and you'll always wonder if you are getting the necessary nutrients (umm do meaters ever wonder?). I have heard that it is too expensive, but I have seen more high quality fresh foods cross my table for the same or less money.
I remember back to breastfeeding my kids. This is something that has fallen in and out of favor and those who don't are often very defensive. When I had my first one 25 yrs or so ago, I breastfed, I worked full time and continued and he was nearly 2 when I weaned him. I didn't consider it "peasant" but others would make comments. I heard it was inconvenient, but the time I would have spent washing bottles I spent playing with my child. I was told I could never know if he was getting enough, but when he was hungry he nursed more. I was told he would not be healthy or gain weight, but oddly enough, he was longer and heavier than my friends' formula-fed babies born at the same time and he was rarely sick, while they were in for ear tubes and adenoids, antibiotics and ERs for all sorts of things. By my last one, everyone who knew me had let up, I had more than proven my point with tall, slim and healthy kids with shining hair and good teeth.
It is sort of the same argument all over again. I don't mind if my nonvegan friends eat meat in front of me, well I mind, but let us say I am very quiet about it. I honor their decision, they tend to honor mine and it goes along okay. You are the proof of the pudding! If your health is good and you are happy, then being vegan is good for you. It is probably good for others too, but they are too opinionated, guilty or igornant about the whole idea.
I was complaining to my DH who is an out-and-out carnivore, but respects my choices, about clueless people who condemn my choices out of hand and then won't shut up about it when I try to change the subject. He suggested I ask them rather more loudly than necessary: "So--how's your sex life?" (As most of my friends are churchgoers, that would shut them up. And probably make them stop talking to me altogether--but at this stage, there are a few of them I wouldn't mind about. ;D)
Thanks so much for the advice all.
I have two best friends. Both female, and neither of them know each other (eventhough I mention one to the other).
One is strict vegan. Her hubby and one son are not. But her daughters are vegetarians (lacto-veg, I think). Her hubby and her son don't have a problem with veg*nism at all (her hubby even cooks her vegan meals when she works late ... what a nice guy). They may pick on us, but it's in a fun way, and we always joke back. Not a problem there.
The one I mentioned in my first post isn't even vegetarian (eventhough she doesn't eat fish or that much red meat). She still loves my cooking (she does love veggies of all kinds). When she comes over, I cook vegan, and she eats it and enjoys it. It's just her hubby that is making a big fuss. I'm getting to the point that it is getting hard to hang over her house sometimes.
I'd rather hang over my vegan friend's house where all veg*ns and meat eaters alike get along great. And there's plenty of food for both groups. Thank goodness I'm spending Memorial Day there!
That's a good way to put it, Tofutti. I agree with that.
But I have good news. I met another VEGAN! YAY! She is actually a student in my martial arts class. I had no idea she was vegan, until my vegan best friend (and instructor) said something. I was thinking, ok. Is she an "angry vegan?" I didn't say anything until she did. But we became fast friends, and we email each other when we are not in class. We trade recipes and the whole "9 yards." I found out that she is a very nice person. We are making plans to have a "vegan" workout. What I mean is, just us three vegans. Then go out for lunch and a beer to get to know each other better (not many vegans in this area to do that with). I feel more comfortable around those two, obviously. So this is great :)
--angry vegan rant here---
I read something in one of your posts above karatekid that REALLY made me think. About your vegan friend and her omni, veggie loving husband. Basically: If a nonvegan lives with a vegan--who GLADLY and avidly cooks Delicious meals--AND the nonvegan loves vegetables...then why the F*ck are they still an omni?! My mom is this way. I cook food all the time. She loves the vegan shit I make. Why does she still eat meat? Believe me, she knows all the animal creulty stuff. She knows all the statistics "Omni diet=heart attack" crap. She knows how bad it is for the environment.
...So how could she even choke down a steak knowing all that? How could anyone? What thoughts go through their head? DO they even think about it? "Hm, this steak used to be a horomone fed grotesque animal abused for its whole life. And eating it will only kill me faster--I think I can actually feel my arteries clogging! But gee, it sure does taste DEEElish!"
I know an answer to my question couldnt possible placate me. i only for see answers like "I just dont think about it that way" "I'm so used to me being an omni" "It's easier to be an omni" (Some it up in three words I AM LAZY) "Meat tastes good". The only "good" answer would be "Yeah, I've thought about it a lot and I'm going to make the transition" Well damnit start that transition today.
Hmph. Clearly this subject ruffles my feathers. (I don't mean to rag on my mom, I was just using her as an example, and punching bag, for my deeper feelings that should be properly directed to an omniore DIET...not an omnivore PERSON)
Tell him you get your vitamins from the vegetables that they are full of them. (I'm not being funny or sarcastic).
Tell him the protein you get from seitan (there's alot of protein in seitan I think there's like 20 something grams if I'm not mistaken). Tell him you also get protein from pasta, beans, tofu, vegan meats.
You get calcium from green vegetables (I thought I heard that).
And the carbs you get from bread.
Lately, I've had two doctors back down on saying ANYTHING about a vegan diet. neither one was judgemental.... but yesterday I was in the ER (again) and one asked in a warning-like manner if i was getting "balanced proteins" since I was vegan... He was shocked when I knew the amino acid combos (by name) to make complete proteins... the doc said he "knew it in school... but forgot"
:D I have to say I was really proud of myself on that one!
I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow morning with a new doctor, so this evening I was going over in my head what I've been eating lately so I'll know the answers to the expected questions. It's a bit crazy that we have to educate our physicians about basic health issues.
...So how could she even choke down a steak knowing all that? How could anyone? What thoughts go through their head? DO they even think about it? "Hm, this steak used to be a horomone fed grotesque animal abused for its whole life. And eating it will only kill me faster--I think I can actually feel my arteries clogging! But gee, it sure does taste DEEElish!"
Ashley,
I honestly think it's the same reason a hugely fat person can eat another twinkie (and another and another)... they have no (or little) respect for themselves or their bodies. They know it's bad, yet the good feeling associated with eating it is overpowering. The single moment of "good feeling" has a drugging effect that to them is worth whatever the consequence. Some of us as are that way with one product or another (it calls to us... vegan or not... like, SODA!)... some of us on vegweb are that way with dairy (or cheese!)... they are that way with meat... until you can step back (away from psychological issues) and look at it from a logical POV and say, "NO I will not do that to myself!" and have enough logic and knowledge (or even sheer willpower) behind you to say NO. Some of those foods actually have chemicals that have addicted us (suagr, HFCS, caffeine caseomorphins etc.) some are purely psycholocically soothing. You have to know you're addicted to be able to break the habit. Just like a junkie has to see that their "use" is affecting their life. Keep sharing info with your mom (we are trying to do the same with our parents!) and hoepfully one day she'll say, wait a minute this isn't worth it! ("it" being that "good feeling" associated with the taste) actually the feeling may not even be all "good" some people use food to punish themselves!
Crazy, huh??
To break food association issues I suggest a book like Flylady's "Body Clutter" book (which doesn't really have super good nutritional info) but adresses food<->psycholocical issues
In fact if you want you can message me with your address and i'll send you my copy
That's a good way to put it, Tofutti. I agree with that.
But I have good news. I met another VEGAN! YAY! She is actually a student in my martial arts class. I had no idea she was vegan, until my vegan best friend (and instructor) said something. I was thinking, ok. Is she an "angry vegan?" I didn't say anything until she did. But we became fast friends, and we email each other when we are not in class. We trade recipes and the whole "9 yards." I found out that she is a very nice person. We are making plans to have a "vegan" workout. What I mean is, just us three vegans. Then go out for lunch and a beer to get to know each other better (not many vegans in this area to do that with). I feel more comfortable around those two, obviously. So this is great :)
SO COOL!! Have fun on your vegan dates! Heehee!
I wish I had a vegan friend!
Actually, our babysitter is vegan and DH says I should ask her to hang out sometime... "tell her you'll pay her!" he said... ::)
--angry vegan rant here---
I read something in one of your posts above karatekid that REALLY made me think. About your vegan friend and her omni, veggie loving husband. Basically: If a nonvegan lives with a vegan--who GLADLY and avidly cooks Delicious meals--AND the nonvegan loves vegetables...then why the F*ck are they still an omni?! My mom is this way. I cook food all the time. She loves the vegan shit I make. Why does she still eat meat? Believe me, she knows all the animal creulty stuff. She knows all the statistics "Omni diet=heart attack" crap. She knows how bad it is for the environment.
...So how could she even choke down a steak knowing all that? How could anyone? What thoughts go through their head? DO they even think about it? "Hm, this steak used to be a horomone fed grotesque animal abused for its whole life. And eating it will only kill me faster--I think I can actually feel my arteries clogging! But gee, it sure does taste DEEElish!"
I know an answer to my question couldnt possible placate me. i only for see answers like "I just dont think about it that way" "I'm so used to me being an omni" "It's easier to be an omni" (Some it up in three words I AM LAZY) "Meat tastes good". The only "good" answer would be "Yeah, I've thought about it a lot and I'm going to make the transition" Well damnit start that transition today.
Hmph. Clearly this subject ruffles my feathers. (I don't mean to rag on my mom, I was just using her as an example, and punching bag, for my deeper feelings that should be properly directed to an omniore DIET...not an omnivore PERSON)
My DH will eat what I cook, cook the vegan dishes I pick out for him to cook when it's his turn, rave to other people about how tasty the vegan food we have is, and then go out to a restaurant (usually when I'm not with him) and eat a hamburger or BBQ brisket. He also has eggs ranchero (can't spell the Spanish word) for lunch almost every day. It drives me crazy. He just ignores anything I try to tell him or show him about how even a little beef is very, very, very bad for him. (He doesn't believe in animal rights, anti-cruelty at all.) His high bad cholesterol has gone down considerably just eating about 98% vegetarian but is still a bit too high and his good cholesterol isn't high enough. Our primary care physician has told him that diet doesn't play that big a role in his cholesterol at this point (says it's hereditary).
I have another worry this morning, the Schwann Foods people put a catalog on our door step that I found this morning. I just glanced through it; it's full of gross dead animal products. I only hope he throws the catalog away. He damn well better not order anything from it!
He's still a great guy; he just has this major carnivore flaw that he cherishes. I think it's deeply ingrained "peer pressure". As long as he doesn't bring dead flesh into our home, I guess I'll just live with it! End of my rant.
He's still a great guy; he just has this major carnivore flaw that he cherishes. I think it's deeply ingrained "peer pressure". As long as he doesn't bring dead flesh into our home, I guess I'll just live with it! End of my rant.
Same situation here. I do most (if not all) of the cooking, which is all vegan--he helps chop things up, but the actual 'cooking' part just isn't his forte ;). Occasionally, if we do tacos or pasta or something, he'll add some dairy cheese to his, but usually not. However, when we go to restaurants or he's out with work people/family/friends, he eats meat because of the "social pressure". He doesn't want to say "I don't eat that" or "I won't eat that" and then be questioned about it, even though he agrees that what he's doing is contributing to animal cruelty and environmental degradation (health isn't as much of an issue for him right now because he's pretty healthy already) and feels bad about it and respects that I have the "will power" to give up animal products. It's definitely a source of tension every now and then. I guess I've become more and more OK with going against the grain--think about if no one ever did because of fear of social ostracizing...I guess I still struggle with being upfront with people about my veganism (although some people make it much easier than others), so I can completely understand where he's coming from (especially because he comes from a hunting family in South Dakota and mostly is uncomfortable with how he would deal with them :-\); however, it's still frustrating.
-End Rant-
I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow morning with a new doctor, so this evening I was going over in my head what I've been eating lately so I'll know the answers to the expected questions. It's a bit crazy that we have to educate our physicians about basic health issues.
I'm in an HMO, so I change doctors a lot. I met my latest one this morning. By chance, she's an O.D. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) instead of an MD (Doctor of Medicine). That means she looks at the whole system instead of just treating symptoms. I told her I was vegan and her only response was, "Good girl." :) :) :) :)
when we go to restaurants or he's out with work people/family/friends, he eats meat because of the "social pressure". He doesn't want to say "I don't eat that" or "I won't eat that"
I know there are vegan men on this website, but I wonder if it is emasculating to be vegan for men. I think it is so much a part of male culture to eat meat and eat unhealthy foods. Women are the ones who are usually on diets and don't seem to have as much of a problem being "picky" at restaurants and stuff. Hm, just a thought.
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