NVR - American Feminism - Women's Rights in the U.S.
Posted by cutething on Oct 11, 2007 · Member since Sep 2007 · 139 posts
More and more women's rights are coming under attack in the United States. Lot's of misinformation is floating around about the morning after pill, and contraception. I find it chilling that political powers are trying to enforce abstinence only programs (which give negative/misinformation about contraception, in addition to being generally ineffective) over sexual education while at the same time limiting contraceptives for WOMEN specifically, but men as well, and then trying to make it criminal to get an abortion. How can it be criminal to get an abortion when these people are systematically removing all other options?
/rant
What do you guys think about this?
I think it's interesting that people who care so much about animal rights and worry over chicken eggs have no problem killing their own young.
I don't think it's a womens rights issue at all...it's ethics.
I think that's an unfair overgeneralization. There are many different viewpoints on this board, and I would venture to guess that those who consider themselves "pro-choice" don't take abortion lightly (i.e. having no problem killing their own young, as you put it). I don't want to start an abortion debate here; I just wanted to say that I think it's not fair to generalize like that.
Or, back to ethics (and common sense), fornication should just be avoided.
Yes, this is logical (no intercourse=no babies). This makes sense and works for my life, but there are many people with much different (and harder) living situations than I have, and I don't really think one can enforce the whole "don't have intercourse" thing unless someone wants to start up a squad of sex police. So, therefore, other options should be made available. I'm not advocating for or against specific options because I think those options are personal and should be left to the decision of those using them. I personally don't use oral contraceptives because I don't like the idea of putting hormones in my body and wondering what potential health effects those have; however, I also don't believe we should ban oral contraceptives because I think it's a personal choice that all women should be able to make for themselves.
I am actually pro-choice, but I don't believe in it as a means of birth control. But this topic reminds me of something my grandpa used to say:
"If it wasn't for unplanned pregnancies then 90% of the people alive today wouldn't be here!"
I think he was saying that because I was an unplanned pregnancy.
I think that all options should be made available to all people. Women should NOT be forced to choose anything they aren't comfortable with because of the beliefs of one person or a group of people. In some countries women wear burkas to prevent fornication. Is that what we want?
If you're against abortion, don't have one. It's just like us- we have chose veganism/vegetarianism because we do not want to contribute to a system we don't believe in. We can daydream about how nice it would be if everyone thought like us, but we certainly can't pass a law that says people aren't allowed to eat meat. We know how bad it is for people, but they are still allowed to make their own choices.
I personally think that people would be able to make better choices if they were better informed, but it doesn't seem that our government feels that way either...
Or, back to ethics (and common sense), fornication should just be avoided.
As baypuppy said before, unfortunately it can't just be that. The world is an ugly place - rape and incest occur. You can consider yourself lucky if all sexual experiences have been willing and loving, but it doesn't mean that it's the only way it happens. And frankly, I'd be damned to have anyone tell me that I had to have a baby from someone I didn't know at my current age and financial situation. It could uproot someone's entire life for something that is NOT their fault.
Sure, most abortions aren't done for that reason, but you can't just ignore those people because they're in the minority.
Oh, and back to the original post - what are the misconceptions about the morning after pill?
Pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion for me. I believe in options, and some people unfortunately use that option as a form of birth control (again, not something I believe in).
Oh, and back to the original post - what are the misconceptions about the morning after pill?
I think, and I'm absolutely NOT sure, that it's something about people think that the morning after pill is essentially an abortion. I believe, in reality, it is a hormone (or someting of that nature) that either prevents your ovaries from releasing an egg or alters the lining of one's womb so that an egg cannot affix itself to it. People think that it causes your lining to shed a fertilized egg (ie abortion) when it is really preventing the pregnancy in the first place.
Edit: I forgot to respond to this comment:
Or, back to ethics (and common sense), fornication should just be avoided.
I agree with Vigilant in that, yes, that is a great idea, but where I run into a problem is, just how realistic is that? We as humans don't only use sex to create children, we use it as "recreation" as well. Who really wants to not do something that is pleasurable?
cutething why are they limiting contraceptives?
And would you say the push for abstinence is from religious groups or is it a money issue?
A lot of people believe plan b (the morning after pill) is actually an abortion. It isn't. It simply prevents pregnancy if you aren't already pregnant. Regarding abortion: This wasn't intended to be an abortion debate. I don't think ANYONE uses abortion as a form of birth control. The procedure, (either in office or with the abortion pill) is painful, and the decision itself is extremely difficult. Even using plan b is generally unpleasant. The need for sexual education, open communication and responsible behavior, not just with regards to family planning, but with sexual health as well, is vitally important.
Denying women the education they need to make choices they should be able to make for themselves is irresponsible and unethical.
@startaurus: I don't know why they are limiting contraceptives, I just know that legally, a lot is being done to lower incentives for drug companies to provide family planning facilities (e.g. provide uninsured women) with low-cost contraceptives. Furthermore, a LOT of money is being given to fake clinics run by non-medical professionals who are interested in scaring women into having children by giving them misinformation. These fake clinics attempt to prevent women from going to Family planning clinics. Family planning clinics provide uninsured women and girls who cannot go to their parents or guardians (usually in the case of rape or incest) not only with sexual education, contraception, emergency contraception, (and yes, abortions), but with gynecological exams, std testing and counseling for rape as well as many, many other things, including help with quitting smoking.
Regarding abstinence only education... I would say that it is primarily religious. I don't know why or how it would be financial.
what i think about this might not be something i can really sum up. our gov'ment is really putting us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't." i am pro-choice but i also don't really agree with abortions as birth control. sadly, my impression is that for many women, they don't have other "options" or information given to them to help prevent pregnancy in the first place. to say "dont have sex" it too simplistic and creates other gendered problems (mostly in that women should are responsible for their reproduction and not men). studies have shown OVER AND OVER again that comprehensive sex education a) postpones first sex and b) lowers rates of diseases and unplanned pregnancies. it disgusts me that my gov'ment ('my' used loosely) LIES to kids about sexual health and then BLAIMS them when they don't "prevent" the negative outcomes.
the book Virginity Lost has a REALLY good summary of sex ed in the US today-- i would recommend anyone who isn't up on things to check it out.
I absolutely agree!!!! I'm at work so I can't get into this as much as I like. I also want to add that contraception should be FREE to any one who wants it. Period. I think the second you turn 18 you should have the option to get something along the lines of Norplant or a long term contraception. I am NOT saying that anyone should be forced into it but it should be readily available.
That's terrible about the fake clinics part.
I think abortion is needed as terrible as that sounds like for example in rape and incest. You must think of the mother there first.
If you advocate abstinence you can save on the contraceptives as well.
I totally agree though they shouldn't treat anybody like a criminal whoever gets an abortion when they removed all the options.
No, I'm saying the vast majority of abortions are by unmarried women.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/marital.asp
Or, back to ethics (and common sense), fornication should just be avoided.
can you clarify more for me what you mean here? how are you defining fornication? because the way i'm reading this is you're saying it is unethical to have sex outside of reproductive purposes.
... so, only married women should be allowed to have sex?
@startaurus:
to take your point a step further, can we think about children for a moment, especially unwanted ones? There are so many abused and abandoned children in this country. We also seem to take issue with letting gay couples adopt children, instead forcing unwanted kids into overcrowded and often abusive foster homes.
The ethical responsibility is two-fold; to women AND to children.
Last year, my daughter in 8th grade, had a Teen Living class in Jr High. She told me about it and it pushed the idea of abstinence over anything else. While I am unsure if it instructed her on the drawbacks of having sex or the possible repercussions all it did, for her, was make her indifferent. Her big problem with the class? The teacher! Apparently what she said and how she dressed / acted were quite in conflict.
I have discussed all the contraceptions, diseases and possible outcomes of sex with her. It did not sink in until her first week of high school where a fellow student (not in her class) showed up obviously pregnant. Education is vital and needed, as well as easy access to affordable contraceptives for those choosing to make their own choices.
Personally, I am pro-choice. I believe everyone should have the freedom to choose what to do with their OWN bodies.
I think it's interesting that people who care so much about animal rights and worry over chicken eggs have no problem killing their own young.
I don't think it's a womens rights issue at all...it's ethics.
Vigilant, does this mean that male emissions are 'killing' their own potential young as well? And what of menstruation? Isn't every period killing our own potential young?
No, I'm saying the vast majority of abortions are by unmarried women.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/marital.asp
Or, back to ethics (and common sense), fornication should just be avoided.
can you clarify more for me what you mean here? how are you defining fornication? because the way i'm reading this is you're saying it is unethical to have sex outside of reproductive purposes.
... so, only married women should be allowed to have sex?
@startaurus:
to take your point a step further, can we think about children for a moment, especially unwanted ones? There are so many abused and abandoned children in this country. We also seem to take issue with letting gay couples adopt children, instead forcing unwanted kids into overcrowded and often abusive foster homes.
The ethical responsibility is two-fold; to women AND to children.
I hear what your saying. But the minute you didn't want a kid and you want to abort it isn't that using a abortion as a form of birth control? But the difference is in this instance is whether one is poor or (middle class or rich) which means can that person afford birth control? Are you using that as a factor when you say women and children? And rememberI'm not trying to convince you I'm just offering my opinion.
Just want to clarify what I'm saying- I'm not against abortion it is needed in society absolutely.In my opinion I just don't think abortion is good when it's used as form of birth control which can be seen as that way as well.
I hear what your saying. But the minute you didn't want a kid and you want to abort it isn't that using a abortion as a form of birth control? But the difference is in this instance is whether one is poor or (middle class or rich) which means can that person afford birth control? Are you using that as a factor when you say women and children? And rememberI'm not trying to convince you I'm just telling you my opinion.
Just want to clarify what I'm saying- I'm not against abortion it is needed in society absolutely.In my opinion I just don't think abortion is good when it's used as form of birth control which can be seen as that way as well.
No; abortion isn't a form of birth control. Birth control prevents pregnancy. People who accuse others of using abortion as a form of birth control suggests that certain women do not take any precautions before having sex, and routinely get abortions, instead of using contraception or using emergency contraception (plan b).
I don't know of anyone (through my research or personally) who does this. Frankly, getting routine abortions, or even routinely using emergency contraception is exhausting and painful. I can't imagine anyone who would actively want to do this. It's far easier, affordable and less painful to simply use precautions. There's no incentive for anyone to "use abortion as a form of birth control."
The economic issue comes into play when considering that the legal action that's been taken at this point DIRECTLY affects poor people. By jacking up the price of contraception (from as little as $10 a month to as high as $50), or making it otherwise unavailable, the poor are put into an unfair and difficult position. Especially women who are in situations where sex isn't a choice. And yeah, they do exist. Whether or not we want them to. There are many women who are raped, and most often NOT by strangers. (only 20% of reported rapes are by strangers).
Instead of denying these women the ability to protect their bodies in some way, we're forcing them into the option of having an abortion they can't easily afford, or to have child after child -- a physical ordeal that without proper medical care can be very dangerous and result in death, (of both mother and child).
Furthermore, the children that are the product of these unwanted pregnancies tend to live in abusive homes, or are put up for adoption. Children who are adopted as infants are one thing. Most of these children don't ever get adopted. I'm going to stop here, but if anyone's interested, I did a lot of research on this, and can whip out some scary statistics about kids in foster care. For instance, most prison inmates were in foster care as children.
Interesting discussion.
More than anything, I think abortion needs to stop being the ONLY choice so many women feel that they have. We need more resources for these women, more education so they don't get pregnant in the first place, more places they can turn. Politics aside, abortion is, in the end, killing a growing human, and that's a tragedy, especially when considering how many women are told that due to race, class or age, they do not deserve to create new life- and if they do abort, they are villified as murderers. It's not an issue as easily slapped on a bumper sticker, as so many people view it.
I will add one thing, though...what do you all think of the women's rights issues regarding palces like China, where it's usually only FEMALE babies being aborted?
No; abortion isn't a form of birth control. Birth control prevents pregnancy. People who accuse others of using abortion as a form of birth control suggests that certain women do not take any precautions before having sex, and routinely get abortions, instead of using contraception or using emergency contraception (plan b).
I do know women who have had numerous abortions (ie 4+) because they did not use birth control and did not want a child. Now, this is definitely NOT the majority; I think most women don't do this, but it is possible. It is also highly disturbing, to me, because it's so preventable! Birth control, as CuteThing insinuated, is around for the very purpose of preventing unwanted pregnancies, and therefore, unwanted abortions.
I hear what your saying. But the minute you didn't want a kid and you want to abort it isn't that using a abortion as a form of birth control? But the difference is in this instance is whether one is poor or (middle class or rich) which means can that person afford birth control? Are you using that as a factor when you say women and children? And rememberI'm not trying to convince you I'm just telling you my opinion.
Just want to clarify what I'm saying- I'm not against abortion it is needed in society absolutely.In my opinion I just don't think abortion is good when it's used as form of birth control which can be seen as that way as well.
No; abortion isn't a form of birth control. Birth control prevents pregnancy. People who accuse others of using abortion as a form of birth control suggests that certain women do not take any precautions before having sex, and routinely get abortions, instead of using contraception or using emergency contraception (plan b).
I don't know of anyone (through my research or personally) who does this. Frankly, getting routine abortions, or even routinely using emergency contraception is exhausting and painful. I can't imagine anyone who would actively want to do this. It's far easier, affordable and less painful to simply use precautions. There's no incentive for anyone to "use abortion as a form of birth control."
The economic issue comes into play when considering that the legal action that's been taken at this point DIRECTLY affects poor people. By jacking up the price of contraception (from as little as $10 a month to as high as $50), or making it otherwise unavailable, the poor are put into an unfair and difficult position. Especially women who are in situations where sex isn't a choice. And yeah, they do exist. Whether or not we want them to. There are many women who are raped, and most often NOT by strangers. (only 20% of reported rapes are by strangers).
Instead of denying these women the ability to protect their bodies in some way, we're forcing them into the option of having an abortion they can't easily afford, or to have child after child -- a physical ordeal that without proper medical care can be very dangerous and result in death, (of both mother and child).
Furthermore, the children that are the product of these unwanted pregnancies tend to live in abusive homes, or are put up for adoption. Children who are adopted as infants are one thing. Most of these children don't ever get adopted. I'm going to stop here, but if anyone's interested, I did a lot of research on this, and can whip out some scary statistics about kids in foster care. For instance, most prison inmates were in foster care as children.
Of course if there is no other option. But if there is you got me so interested and the lady could've afforded birth control but now she's heading for an abortion do you think it's right?
Freakonomics-- great book! The author brings up the relationship of abortion and crime rate. Stats show that when abortion became legal, the crime rate had been steadily climbing and was purported by the experts to continue climbing. Twenty years later the crime rate had dropped dramatically. Most economists claimed different reasons, but no one attributed it to the fact that now women had the choice whether or not to have a child. Before then, children who were not wanted-- but the mother had no choice-- were forced to either grow up in an unsupportive environment whether because th child was unwanted by the parent to begin with or because the child had not been wanted because of the parent not being able to afford to raise a child sufficiently. Either way, the child would have had a dysfunctional environment. The mother would've had to work numerous jobs to support herself and the child while leaving little time and energy to nurture the child's upbringing; the child would not have been wanted anyway so would not have been nurtured and supported emotionally; the child would have been placed into the adoption system, had small chance of being adopted and more chance of being raised going through overcrowded, undersupported system until being turned out alone at age 18; or child may have been rasied in abusive environemnt after poor mother married an abusive man just to be able to have a man to help support them. All of these options led to a much greater chance of the child not getting the nurturing and teaching, and learning the emotional and educational skills necesarry to become a productive member of society. These unwanted children, lacking skills and support, would more easily turn to a life of crime. Thereby feeding the socioeconomic cycle of the poor and uneducated remaining poor, uneducated, unable to get out of debt, and limiting their options even more (which eventually leads to apathy by even themselves about this vicious cycle).
Interesting discussion.
More than anything, I think abortion needs to stop being the ONLY choice so many women feel that they have. We need more resources for these women, more education so they don't get pregnant in the first place, more places they can turn. Politics aside, abortion is, in the end, killing a growing human, and that's a tragedy, especially when considering how many women are told that due to race, class or age, they do not deserve to create new life- and if they do abort, they are villified as murderers. It's not an issue as easily slapped on a bumper sticker, as so many people view it.
I will add one thing, though...what do you all think of the women's rights issues regarding palces like China, where it's usually only FEMALE babies being aborted?
I think both the men and the women there have to get it through their heads that women aren't nothing. I think it's an old world "charm". But the women have to stand up to it and say no.
I sometimes wonder how often, if ever, people think how different it would be if men were held as accountable as women are for getting pregnant when not wanted or planned. The woman has to deal with the consequences so much more intimately (both psychologically and physically), while the man might know about it, but doesn't have to deal with it every minute of everyday like the woman does who is pregnant since it affects her no matter what choice she makes. The man does not have to deal with it mentally and constantly if he doesn't want to. In the "worst" case (if she were to have and keep the child even if he didn't want), he can send a check once a month and not think about it any more than that. It's frustrating that women take more of the blame than the men who are just as "guilty" <---- if that's the right word. Yet another example that it IS a women's rights issue.
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