Posted by Ecstatic on Oct 04, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 531 posts
I think it depends. My parents were first generation immigrants here and started out with, literally, nothing. I remember when they'd leave me home alone when I was 5 and sick to go to work. They couldn't afford a sitter for me, and had no friends here.
But, with A LOT of hard work, they managed to do very well for themselves.
My S/O lived in the ghetto of NYC. Literally. His parents were incredibly poor, and he remembers going hungry a few times because there was no money for food. His shoes were always too small, he never had enough clothes, etc. It was a pretty dismal childhood for him. He had (illegaly) 2 part time jobs in high school in order to help out his parents, and pay for his subway rides to high school.
He managed to get a scholarship to Pratt, then went on to design for Chrysler. Later he did some freelance work with planes and tupperware of all things. After which he opened his own business ... and well, let's just say, his is the rags to riches story.
So, I think the cycle can certainly be broken. But, it also depends on your family. My grandparents were always supportive of my parents and encouraged a strong work ethic. My S/O's parents also encouraged a strong work ethic.
If you're from a family who is very poor, doesn't encourage a strong work ethic, doesn't encourage education, doesn't teach you values and responsibility ... then chances are the cycle of poverty will continue.
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Posted by Cephi on Oct 04, 2007 · Member since Feb 2007 · 371 posts
Statistically, overwhelmingly, yes it does. Social mobility from one generation to the next is the very, VERY rare exception. That's why it's notable, and special, the "rags to riches" story. But if a willingness to work unbelievably hard were enough by itself to accomplish it, then it would be much more common, since many people work themselves to the bone and achieve no social mobility.
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Posted by catkin on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Aug 2007 · 126 posts
I think in many cases it's the poverty of ambition within certain groups which can keep them trapped in the cycle of poverty, and/or lead them into crime etc. I'm a historian, and that seems to be the lesson from this country certainly.
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Posted by yabbitgirl on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Apr 2006 · 14266 posts
Yes, in certain areas and cultures. I've just finished re-reading Dominique LaPierre's "City of Joy" in which the cycle of poverty is discussed at length. The cycle really gets a hold when the person takes out loans at usurious rates to cover unexpected expenses such as a drought, death, etc. Being too poor to repay the loan, they lose what collateral they might have used to secure it, and/or acquire another usurious loan to pay the first, etc. etc. etc.
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Posted by beccalynn77 on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Mar 2007 · 238 posts
I live in Brazil ( as most of ya'll prolly already kno by now..). One of the things i see most here is poverty. Here in Brazil they have " Favelas" ... not sure what they are called in English ) but just 'cuz they don't exist in the states. But basically.. its a place where people live in a tarp or like a one-room house thrown to gether withvarious different colored boards. There are many places tthat have these poor locations.. they are usually made on dirt out in nowhere-land, and its basically like a neighborhood. The only prob is... insinde these aweful shacks... can be all sorta of expensive electronics.. boom boxes ( really expensive here ) nice tvs, dvd players, vhs... justabout everything. But the things is... in these locations live: drug addicts.. robbers.. everything.Now if these people wnated to move out of that lifestyle i'm sure they could ( actually i know they could); but it all boils down to this matter: Do they really want to? Of course in many places... there are millions of stories about ppl growing up in poor homes.. or foster care etc... and making something great out of themselves.. so i think yes.. its just about willpower.. want ... what you want to make out of yourself.
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Posted by tanevab on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Jan 2007 · 942 posts
In the US and a few other countries it is definitely easier as we are guaranteed a decent free education up to grade 12 and any one who has the drive has access to financial help with college. In many other countries if you can't afford grade school than you might not have the opportunity for advancement except in the criminal word, one of the reasons the Favelas stay so prevalent in many countries.
If you're from a family who is very poor, doesn't encourage a strong work ethic, doesn't encourage education, doesn't teach you values and responsibility ... then chances are the cycle of poverty will continue.
I completely agree. But even then there are a rare few who are able to look out and see a better world and reach for it.
Statistically, overwhelmingly, yes it does. Social mobility from one generation to the next is the very, VERY rare exception. That's why it's notable, and special, the "rags to riches" story. But if a willingness to work unbelievably hard were enough by itself to accomplish it, then it would be much more common, since many people work themselves to the bone and achieve no social mobility.
As ecstatic said it's not just the will to work hard but also the focus on education that is important here. I also don't think that it is that rare of an exception to move up in standings. The 'rags to riches' stories are very rare but someone simply pulling themselves and maybe their family up a notch out of poverty hapens every day.
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Posted by yabbitgirl on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Apr 2006 · 14266 posts
BL, are you seriously equating the price of a boombox to the price of a house/apartment?
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Posted by Saby on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since May 2006 · 60 posts
BL, are you seriously equating the price of a boombox to the price of a house/apartment?
I think she's illustrating their priorities.
Instead of pooling their money to purchase something substantial to help better their lives they decide to buy super expensive boom boxes instead of say a cheap one.
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Posted by hespedal on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Mar 2006 · 5259 posts
i think it is very very very difficult. i mainly agree with cephi on this one. yes we have a 'free' education in the public school system but for one thing, i do not believe it is a very good one at all (people who can afford private are much luckier) and for another thing everyone seems to be forgetting that if you are from a richer area, your schools are better, poorer worse. i could talk in great length about a lot of little details on how much worse your education is when you have less money. the children have less of an 'competetive edge' even coming into school because their parents didn't have time to help them/hire someone or the money to buy them 'mind enhancing' toys (which might be a load of bs anyway, as far as i am concerned). a lot of times poorer families have to have kids that work as soon as they can because they need the money (as a family or the child just doesn't get money from their parents), so they aren't able to get as good of grades so that they can advance onto a good college. once they are in college they need to go through all kinds of things for financial aid (which is incredibly hard to get, btw), you can't afford to buy textbooks, you can't afford rent on a good quite place, you are never able to get the right foods (which changes mental abilities/how much you care). basically, if you are struggling financially it is a hard life, and you are very lucky if you step up a socio-economical class from your parents, especially with the rich-poor gap getting larger.
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Posted by Ecstatic on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 531 posts
Well, in America, at least, I do think people taking their socio-economic status up a notch or two does happen frequently, as someone pointed out. We hear about rags and riches because it's so extreme of a story. But, there are plenty people whose parents were on welfare, who do not use welfare when they become adults because they don't need it. That's a step up. Or plenty of people whose parents were drowning in debt, who never get into any debt beyond a mortgage.
To me, it really comes down to education (not school - but the real life education parents should give you) and values. Sure, I've seen plenty of people work themselves to the bone in order to reach a certain economic level and never succeed. But, I've ALSO seen them make really bad financial mistakes when they were younger.
In America, at age 18, no one is in debt. It's a clean slate. What you do with that clean slate is up to you. Some people choose to avoid college, get a minimum wage job with no benefits, and continue their life that way. Then, one day, they meet someone and decide to have kids even though they have NO money with which to support children and the medical bills that can come with that. So, the cycle of poverty continues. Or they simply have an accident, and because they're working 3 part time jobs with no benefits, they drown in medical bills.
But, it could have been avoided if they chose more responsibly at age 18. Which is where education, work ethic, and values taught by their parents come in. I'm not saying they chose wrong on purpose ... they just didn't know any better.
So, certain public schools are not that great. Although, some are. I know several people who went to 2 years of community college (because they're grades were bad in high school) and wound up transferring to a really great 4 year university because they worked so hard in that community college. Plenty of people do that, actually.
Here we have choices, and at age 18, in America, the world is yours ... providing you KNOW what to do with it. And that comes from the values your parents teach you. Or your teachers ... or just some values you pick up somewhere that work, and stick with you.
But, if you just don't know how to get out of the situation you're in ... then, obviously, you will continue in the same direction as your parents.
Not saying everyone can go from poverty to unimaginable wealthy. No, they can't. But, they certainly can get to a point where they're comfortable. With the right planning and choices, of course. But, again, you have to KNOW which steps to take in order to get out of your situation. Not everyone does. Which, IMO, is the real problem. How do we instill such knowledge in people?
Now, in undeveloped countries ... I'd say most people just don't even get a chance. So, that's a different thing.
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Posted by Duckalucky on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Aug 2006 · 1127 posts
Trust me, education is not the magic key. I am the first person in my family to have a college education and I have a Master's degree (dropped out of the doctorate program for many reasons, not least because the field is impacted and my chances to be hired in it are virtually zero). Now I have all the usual scraping-by-middle-class expenses, plus my student loans. But of course that's just money-poverty, not homelessness, starvation, etc. All I lack is affordable health care, really.
I lived in Peru for 15 months, and saw cruel and institutional poverty in those third world conditions. Most of the people worked harder than any person I have ever seen in the U.S. and they lived in what they saw as fitting accommodations, which varied from adobe-shack-without-services (water/electricity) to dazzlingly-pretty-brick-building-with-bare-minimal-and-unsafe-services. Each and every one was proud of their home (and kept it spotless) -- they did not see a need to change their circumstances. Wealth meant having enough to eat, repair broken items, invest in the children's school clothes and books, or the family business. I think that it is hard for well-off people and citizens of the first world to imagine how normal, how comfortable, how not-always-terrifying real poverty is.
When you work all your waking hours, how dare someone chide you for your work ethic? When the economy is collapsing, even savings mean nothing. I met a spice vendor once, selling tiny baggies of black pepper salt and cumin and cinnamon for 10 centimos apiece (approximately 2 cents) ... who had a doctorate and was a social scientist. He let his poorer customers have the product on credit, presumably to pay back later (though he knew many would never be able to) and charged his richer customers slightly more. He worked every day from 5 a.m. until 8 p.m. Tell me he lacked education or a work ethic!
Change has to come from somewhere else: we cannot blame the victims.
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Posted by Ecstatic on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 531 posts
I wasn't speaking about education in the college sense. I said, in my post, I was speaking about real world/life education which parents should impart.
Also, I was specifically speaking of America, NOT developing countries. Or undeveloped countries. I made that distinction in my post.
Besides, I'm not chiding anyone for their work ethic. But, I can't help it if I see someone working all day and night at a job they hate just to make ends meet ... and I see exactly how that situation could have been avoided if they had made better choices at age 18. Again, I am speaking of in America. It's hard for people to make those choices, though, if they have NO knowledge of WHAT to do. And that is the type of education I am speaking of ... teaching people how to avoid situation where they will be struggling for the rest of their lives. Again, in America.
I realize there are many other countries offer zero options for upward mobility. I don't blame them for their situation at all.
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Posted by Duckalucky on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Aug 2006 · 1127 posts
I believe very strongly that the situation is the same in the U.S., only we have better infrastructures of plumbing, electricity, etc. giving an illusion of mobility.
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Posted by tanevab on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Jan 2007 · 942 posts
When you work all your waking hours, how dare someone chide you for your work ethic? Tell me he lacked education or a work ethic!
Change has to come from somewhere else: we cannot blame the victims.
I don't think that anyone here would do that. Other countries are different. In some places the political social scene is such that even educated people with high work ethics can not make it. Unfortunately some people here choose to stay in that pattern of poverty. As a college professor I see it all the time. Mane of my students feel like they are entitle to a degree without working for it. They flunkout and then blame the 'system' for there poverty and failure.
Here in America people have the opportunities to make change in their lives to a high degree. Many people just don't realize that it is possible or believe that they can't because they have been told they are nothing all their lives.Unfortunately some people here choose to stay in that pattern of poverty. As a college professor I see it all the time. Mane of my students feel like they are entitle to a degree without working for it. They flunkout and then blame the 'system' for there poverty and failure.
Also like you said I think people on this board are coming from different points of view on what poverty is. Some people view poverty as not being able to buy all the toys they want. True poverty is not knowing wether you will have a roof over your head from day to day or food to eat.
I grew up in a very rural area of the US and there were many people who fell into this category. They too were very proud of what they had and and kept a very nice clean home and would give you the shirt off their back. I think that many people equate poor with downtrodden and unclean/uncaring and this is not always true.
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Posted by Duckalucky on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Aug 2006 · 1127 posts
You say you see people remaining in poverty all the time, Tanevab... tell me, do you ever see them changing their social/economic class?
I think that social mobility is highly mythologized-- possible, but very improbable. Even people who win the lottery generally end up worse off than before they won it, within a very few years. I don't think the problem is necessarily motivation or ambition. At 18, I could not have made a choice that would change my class-- not only was I 18 (and totally incapable of planning for the long run), but my options were limited. My education looks like a success story until you get to the part where I'm supposed to be employable.
Poverty is institutional when the gap between the haves and have-nots is so wide-- particularly when the people in the middle are all skidding toward "not."
This is true in every country; the factors leading up to some of the most appallingly graphic illustrations of third world poverty I saw in Peru are present here and simply moving slower. Privatization of infrastructures (leading to collapse when maintenance is expensive; simpler to sell off the no-longer-productive business or go bankrupt), deregulation of industry (selling off factory seconded condoms and medication past its expiry date, for instance, in unregulated farmacias tended by the pharmacist's uneducated female family members), inflation (collapse of currency) etc. It's probably coming and it will send us to Hell in the very same handbasket.
I'm not here to argue and I am for some reason getting surly, so I'm going to let this conversation slide by me for a while. But I don't think we can all congratulate ourselves for our American-dream cowboying up from the bootstraps and shake our heads sadly at the less fortunate. Social mobility is a myth for most people; that has more to do with our political participation and choices (which are purposely misinformed by campaigns of elaborate propaganda) than our desire to climb the ladder.
Forgive the rant. :)
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Posted by tanevab on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Jan 2007 · 942 posts
You say you see people remaining in poverty all the time, Tanevab... tell me, do you ever see them changing their social/economic class?
Actually yes I do. I've been in the same college now for about four years. The college that I teach at is in a poorer section of Chicago and we get a lot of older (30-40) returning students. I'm getting to the point now where There are students of mine coming back to say Hi after they have graduated and moved on. I've literally had dozens of former students tell me how they were finally able to get off of wellfare and feel like they finally had an opportunity to provide a better chance for their children. They are unlikely to ever be wealthy but they are happy to just be able to meet their family's needs.
I see both sides everyday. It's all about personal choice.
Forgive the rant. :)
No need this is a good discusion. The system isn't perfect by any means but I do believe that we provide one of the few systems where people have a chance at advancement.
I also think that you raise a good point about education not necessarily equaling employment. The college that I teach at is driven by the market. We only offer degrees that are very employable. In many cases a person is better off learning a trade than attending school (after 12th grade).
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Posted by Duckalucky on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Aug 2006 · 1127 posts
In many cases a person is better off learning a trade than attending school (after 12th grade).
100% agreed. Cultivating connections, too.
I find myself working in the office of one of my mom's friends!
I am very glad you get the chance to see mobility in the system-- I don't see much of it and it depresses me not to, particularly viewing the gifted, motivated, and smart people I know. When we talk about bad choices I see red... not all of them are painted with a big "this is a bad choice" warning label. Sometimes things happen behind the scenes. I realize that for many people, those choices should be reasonably obvious-- drugs, crimes, etc. But I also vividly remember the chair of my program sitting down with me and telling me, quite seriously, to leave my husband (then of 10 years, now of 19) and he could get me into the program of my choice-- just not the one my husband was in. Family members die at inopportune times, medical bills and unexpected pregnancies happen even when people make good and smart choices, etc. Part of it is the perilous environment (as part of American mainstream dietary atrociousness can be attributed to the hazardous environment evolved by industrial lobbies and lack of political responsibility to the individual-- it's always easier to point at someone and say, "he could have read the labels" or "she should have cooked the chicken until it was well done in surgically sterile conditions" than to make the environment safer.)
Little things like, say,having a mild asthma attack when you meet a prof at office hours ("I'm worried about you. You seem tense... consider taking up yoga or something") can torpedo your career choices.
All in all, if you're 18 now and wondering what to do with yourself, and want to go to school-- yes, learn a trade. Something indispensable. You can always follow your aesthetic inclinations through that profession and in your leisure hours.
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Posted by Ecstatic on Oct 05, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 531 posts
I think that social mobility is highly mythologized-- possible, but very improbable. Even people who win the lottery generally end up worse off than before they won it, within a very few years. I don't think the problem is necessarily motivation or ambition. At 18, I could not have made a choice that would change my class-- not only was I 18 (and totally incapable of planning for the long run), but my options were limited.
But, that's my whole point. At age 18, for some reason, people just don't know what to do to get out of their situation. It's not a matter of "I can't" ... it's a matter of "I don't know."
Those who DO know, get out. Those who don't, don't.
I mean, why are they the same or worse off when they win millions from the lottery? It's a matter of not knowing what choices to make in order to get onself out of said situation. If a person wins the lottery and then is worse off a few years down the road ... that is due to some really BAD decisions, not "the system."
Quote:
I believe very strongly that the situation is the same in the U.S., only we have better infrastructures of plumbing, electricity, etc. giving an illusion of mobility.
Our situation in America is not the same as a person living under a tarp or some plywood in Africa, who can't even read, who can't send their children to school, who can barely feed their children, whose children die due to lack of medicine. Or who lives in an orphanage because their parents died from AIDS or starvation. Or who gets booted out of that orphanage onto the street at age 18. They have absolutely NO hope of getting out - regardless of whether they know how.
In America, if you know how to get out of your situation ... you can do it. Many, many, many people take the community college route and then transfer to a 4 year university. It's all about playing your cards right during that time, i.e. work hard in the 2 year college, establish good credit. Get a full or partial scholarship at the 4 year university, help out with financial aid or student loans. Make sure the major you have is a job that will be in demand (do the research first), pay back your student loans before marriage/family. If you have a passion, pursue it on your own time until it makes you money (or just keep it as a hobby). It's a simple formula that MANY people do not know or simply do not care to follow.
Conversely, share somethiing with 5 roommates while working a random job and pursue your passion until you make it. No marriage, no kids before said passion is realized or financial stability is reached.
Or learn a trade, as another poster pointed out.
I'm not trying to make a generalization ... but, for god's sake, when a person doesn't have money, they should NOT have kids. I've seen this several times - people struggling with 3, 4, 5, kids. To me, that's insane.
I'm not saying everyone will be able to afford a BMW and 4,000 square foot house. But, certainly, people can be debt free and live within their means without constant struggle. It's really about smart planning, and it must begin at age 18.
Point is, in America, that formula is possible to realize. In undeveloped countries ... that formula is not going to help anyone.
I believe more detail is needed in order to answer the question.
I believe more detail is needed in order to answer the question.
That it follows one generation to the the next.
I think it depends. My parents were first generation immigrants here and started out with, literally, nothing. I remember when they'd leave me home alone when I was 5 and sick to go to work. They couldn't afford a sitter for me, and had no friends here.
But, with A LOT of hard work, they managed to do very well for themselves.
My S/O lived in the ghetto of NYC. Literally. His parents were incredibly poor, and he remembers going hungry a few times because there was no money for food. His shoes were always too small, he never had enough clothes, etc. It was a pretty dismal childhood for him. He had (illegaly) 2 part time jobs in high school in order to help out his parents, and pay for his subway rides to high school.
He managed to get a scholarship to Pratt, then went on to design for Chrysler. Later he did some freelance work with planes and tupperware of all things. After which he opened his own business ... and well, let's just say, his is the rags to riches story.
So, I think the cycle can certainly be broken. But, it also depends on your family. My grandparents were always supportive of my parents and encouraged a strong work ethic. My S/O's parents also encouraged a strong work ethic.
If you're from a family who is very poor, doesn't encourage a strong work ethic, doesn't encourage education, doesn't teach you values and responsibility ... then chances are the cycle of poverty will continue.
Statistically, overwhelmingly, yes it does. Social mobility from one generation to the next is the very, VERY rare exception. That's why it's notable, and special, the "rags to riches" story. But if a willingness to work unbelievably hard were enough by itself to accomplish it, then it would be much more common, since many people work themselves to the bone and achieve no social mobility.
I think in many cases it's the poverty of ambition within certain groups which can keep them trapped in the cycle of poverty, and/or lead them into crime etc. I'm a historian, and that seems to be the lesson from this country certainly.
Yes, in certain areas and cultures. I've just finished re-reading Dominique LaPierre's "City of Joy" in which the cycle of poverty is discussed at length. The cycle really gets a hold when the person takes out loans at usurious rates to cover unexpected expenses such as a drought, death, etc. Being too poor to repay the loan, they lose what collateral they might have used to secure it, and/or acquire another usurious loan to pay the first, etc. etc. etc.
I live in Brazil ( as most of ya'll prolly already kno by now..). One of the things i see most here is poverty. Here in Brazil they have " Favelas" ... not sure what they are called in English ) but just 'cuz they don't exist in the states. But basically.. its a place where people live in a tarp or like a one-room house thrown to gether withvarious different colored boards. There are many places tthat have these poor locations.. they are usually made on dirt out in nowhere-land, and its basically like a neighborhood. The only prob is... insinde these aweful shacks... can be all sorta of expensive electronics.. boom boxes ( really expensive here ) nice tvs, dvd players, vhs... justabout everything. But the things is... in these locations live: drug addicts.. robbers.. everything.Now if these people wnated to move out of that lifestyle i'm sure they could ( actually i know they could); but it all boils down to this matter: Do they really want to?
Of course in many places... there are millions of stories about ppl growing up in poor homes.. or foster care etc... and making something great out of themselves.. so i think yes.. its just about willpower.. want ... what you want to make out of yourself.
In the US and a few other countries it is definitely easier as we are guaranteed a decent free education up to grade 12 and any one who has the drive has access to financial help with college. In many other countries if you can't afford grade school than you might not have the opportunity for advancement except in the criminal word, one of the reasons the Favelas stay so prevalent in many countries.
If you're from a family who is very poor, doesn't encourage a strong work ethic, doesn't encourage education, doesn't teach you values and responsibility ... then chances are the cycle of poverty will continue.
I completely agree. But even then there are a rare few who are able to look out and see a better world and reach for it.
Statistically, overwhelmingly, yes it does. Social mobility from one generation to the next is the very, VERY rare exception. That's why it's notable, and special, the "rags to riches" story. But if a willingness to work unbelievably hard were enough by itself to accomplish it, then it would be much more common, since many people work themselves to the bone and achieve no social mobility.
As ecstatic said it's not just the will to work hard but also the focus on education that is important here. I also don't think that it is that rare of an exception to move up in standings. The 'rags to riches' stories are very rare but someone simply pulling themselves and maybe their family up a notch out of poverty hapens every day.
BL, are you seriously equating the price of a boombox to the price of a house/apartment?
BL, are you seriously equating the price of a boombox to the price of a house/apartment?
I think she's illustrating their priorities.
Instead of pooling their money to purchase something substantial to help better their lives they decide to buy super expensive boom boxes instead of say a cheap one.
i think it is very very very difficult. i mainly agree with cephi on this one. yes we have a 'free' education in the public school system but for one thing, i do not believe it is a very good one at all (people who can afford private are much luckier) and for another thing everyone seems to be forgetting that if you are from a richer area, your schools are better, poorer worse. i could talk in great length about a lot of little details on how much worse your education is when you have less money. the children have less of an 'competetive edge' even coming into school because their parents didn't have time to help them/hire someone or the money to buy them 'mind enhancing' toys (which might be a load of bs anyway, as far as i am concerned). a lot of times poorer families have to have kids that work as soon as they can because they need the money (as a family or the child just doesn't get money from their parents), so they aren't able to get as good of grades so that they can advance onto a good college. once they are in college they need to go through all kinds of things for financial aid (which is incredibly hard to get, btw), you can't afford to buy textbooks, you can't afford rent on a good quite place, you are never able to get the right foods (which changes mental abilities/how much you care). basically, if you are struggling financially it is a hard life, and you are very lucky if you step up a socio-economical class from your parents, especially with the rich-poor gap getting larger.
Well, in America, at least, I do think people taking their socio-economic status up a notch or two does happen frequently, as someone pointed out. We hear about rags and riches because it's so extreme of a story. But, there are plenty people whose parents were on welfare, who do not use welfare when they become adults because they don't need it. That's a step up. Or plenty of people whose parents were drowning in debt, who never get into any debt beyond a mortgage.
To me, it really comes down to education (not school - but the real life education parents should give you) and values. Sure, I've seen plenty of people work themselves to the bone in order to reach a certain economic level and never succeed. But, I've ALSO seen them make really bad financial mistakes when they were younger.
In America, at age 18, no one is in debt. It's a clean slate. What you do with that clean slate is up to you. Some people choose to avoid college, get a minimum wage job with no benefits, and continue their life that way. Then, one day, they meet someone and decide to have kids even though they have NO money with which to support children and the medical bills that can come with that. So, the cycle of poverty continues. Or they simply have an accident, and because they're working 3 part time jobs with no benefits, they drown in medical bills.
But, it could have been avoided if they chose more responsibly at age 18. Which is where education, work ethic, and values taught by their parents come in. I'm not saying they chose wrong on purpose ... they just didn't know any better.
So, certain public schools are not that great. Although, some are. I know several people who went to 2 years of community college (because they're grades were bad in high school) and wound up transferring to a really great 4 year university because they worked so hard in that community college. Plenty of people do that, actually.
Here we have choices, and at age 18, in America, the world is yours ... providing you KNOW what to do with it. And that comes from the values your parents teach you. Or your teachers ... or just some values you pick up somewhere that work, and stick with you.
But, if you just don't know how to get out of the situation you're in ... then, obviously, you will continue in the same direction as your parents.
Not saying everyone can go from poverty to unimaginable wealthy. No, they can't. But, they certainly can get to a point where they're comfortable. With the right planning and choices, of course. But, again, you have to KNOW which steps to take in order to get out of your situation. Not everyone does. Which, IMO, is the real problem. How do we instill such knowledge in people?
Now, in undeveloped countries ... I'd say most people just don't even get a chance. So, that's a different thing.
Trust me, education is not the magic key. I am the first person in my family to have a college education and I have a Master's degree (dropped out of the doctorate program for many reasons, not least because the field is impacted and my chances to be hired in it are virtually zero). Now I have all the usual scraping-by-middle-class expenses, plus my student loans. But of course that's just money-poverty, not homelessness, starvation, etc. All I lack is affordable health care, really.
I lived in Peru for 15 months, and saw cruel and institutional poverty in those third world conditions. Most of the people worked harder than any person I have ever seen in the U.S. and they lived in what they saw as fitting accommodations, which varied from adobe-shack-without-services (water/electricity) to dazzlingly-pretty-brick-building-with-bare-minimal-and-unsafe-services. Each and every one was proud of their home (and kept it spotless) -- they did not see a need to change their circumstances. Wealth meant having enough to eat, repair broken items, invest in the children's school clothes and books, or the family business. I think that it is hard for well-off people and citizens of the first world to imagine how normal, how comfortable, how not-always-terrifying real poverty is.
When you work all your waking hours, how dare someone chide you for your work ethic? When the economy is collapsing, even savings mean nothing. I met a spice vendor once, selling tiny baggies of black pepper salt and cumin and cinnamon for 10 centimos apiece (approximately 2 cents) ... who had a doctorate and was a social scientist. He let his poorer customers have the product on credit, presumably to pay back later (though he knew many would never be able to) and charged his richer customers slightly more. He worked every day from 5 a.m. until 8 p.m. Tell me he lacked education or a work ethic!
Change has to come from somewhere else: we cannot blame the victims.
I wasn't speaking about education in the college sense. I said, in my post, I was speaking about real world/life education which parents should impart.
Also, I was specifically speaking of America, NOT developing countries. Or undeveloped countries. I made that distinction in my post.
Besides, I'm not chiding anyone for their work ethic. But, I can't help it if I see someone working all day and night at a job they hate just to make ends meet ... and I see exactly how that situation could have been avoided if they had made better choices at age 18. Again, I am speaking of in America. It's hard for people to make those choices, though, if they have NO knowledge of WHAT to do. And that is the type of education I am speaking of ... teaching people how to avoid situation where they will be struggling for the rest of their lives. Again, in America.
I realize there are many other countries offer zero options for upward mobility. I don't blame them for their situation at all.
I believe very strongly that the situation is the same in the U.S., only we have better infrastructures of plumbing, electricity, etc. giving an illusion of mobility.
When you work all your waking hours, how dare someone chide you for your work ethic? Tell me he lacked education or a work ethic!
Change has to come from somewhere else: we cannot blame the victims.
I don't think that anyone here would do that. Other countries are different. In some places the political social scene is such that even educated people with high work ethics can not make it. Unfortunately some people here choose to stay in that pattern of poverty. As a college professor I see it all the time. Mane of my students feel like they are entitle to a degree without working for it. They flunkout and then blame the 'system' for there poverty and failure.
Here in America people have the opportunities to make change in their lives to a high degree. Many people just don't realize that it is possible or believe that they can't because they have been told they are nothing all their lives.Unfortunately some people here choose to stay in that pattern of poverty. As a college professor I see it all the time. Mane of my students feel like they are entitle to a degree without working for it. They flunkout and then blame the 'system' for there poverty and failure.
Also like you said I think people on this board are coming from different points of view on what poverty is. Some people view poverty as not being able to buy all the toys they want. True poverty is not knowing wether you will have a roof over your head from day to day or food to eat.
I grew up in a very rural area of the US and there were many people who fell into this category. They too were very proud of what they had and and kept a very nice clean home and would give you the shirt off their back. I think that many people equate poor with downtrodden and unclean/uncaring and this is not always true.
You say you see people remaining in poverty all the time, Tanevab... tell me, do you ever see them changing their social/economic class?
I think that social mobility is highly mythologized-- possible, but very improbable. Even people who win the lottery generally end up worse off than before they won it, within a very few years. I don't think the problem is necessarily motivation or ambition. At 18, I could not have made a choice that would change my class-- not only was I 18 (and totally incapable of planning for the long run), but my options were limited. My education looks like a success story until you get to the part where I'm supposed to be employable.
Poverty is institutional when the gap between the haves and have-nots is so wide-- particularly when the people in the middle are all skidding toward "not."
This is true in every country; the factors leading up to some of the most appallingly graphic illustrations of third world poverty I saw in Peru are present here and simply moving slower. Privatization of infrastructures (leading to collapse when maintenance is expensive; simpler to sell off the no-longer-productive business or go bankrupt), deregulation of industry (selling off factory seconded condoms and medication past its expiry date, for instance, in unregulated farmacias tended by the pharmacist's uneducated female family members), inflation (collapse of currency) etc. It's probably coming and it will send us to Hell in the very same handbasket.
I'm not here to argue and I am for some reason getting surly, so I'm going to let this conversation slide by me for a while. But I don't think we can all congratulate ourselves for our American-dream cowboying up from the bootstraps and shake our heads sadly at the less fortunate. Social mobility is a myth for most people; that has more to do with our political participation and choices (which are purposely misinformed by campaigns of elaborate propaganda) than our desire to climb the ladder.
Forgive the rant. :)
You say you see people remaining in poverty all the time, Tanevab... tell me, do you ever see them changing their social/economic class?
Actually yes I do. I've been in the same college now for about four years. The college that I teach at is in a poorer section of Chicago and we get a lot of older (30-40) returning students. I'm getting to the point now where There are students of mine coming back to say Hi after they have graduated and moved on. I've literally had dozens of former students tell me how they were finally able to get off of wellfare and feel like they finally had an opportunity to provide a better chance for their children. They are unlikely to ever be wealthy but they are happy to just be able to meet their family's needs.
I see both sides everyday. It's all about personal choice.
Forgive the rant. :)
No need this is a good discusion. The system isn't perfect by any means but I do believe that we provide one of the few systems where people have a chance at advancement.
I also think that you raise a good point about education not necessarily equaling employment. The college that I teach at is driven by the market. We only offer degrees that are very employable. In many cases a person is better off learning a trade than attending school (after 12th grade).
In many cases a person is better off learning a trade than attending school (after 12th grade).
100% agreed. Cultivating connections, too.
I find myself working in the office of one of my mom's friends!
I am very glad you get the chance to see mobility in the system-- I don't see much of it and it depresses me not to, particularly viewing the gifted, motivated, and smart people I know. When we talk about bad choices I see red... not all of them are painted with a big "this is a bad choice" warning label. Sometimes things happen behind the scenes. I realize that for many people, those choices should be reasonably obvious-- drugs, crimes, etc. But I also vividly remember the chair of my program sitting down with me and telling me, quite seriously, to leave my husband (then of 10 years, now of 19) and he could get me into the program of my choice-- just not the one my husband was in. Family members die at inopportune times, medical bills and unexpected pregnancies happen even when people make good and smart choices, etc. Part of it is the perilous environment (as part of American mainstream dietary atrociousness can be attributed to the hazardous environment evolved by industrial lobbies and lack of political responsibility to the individual-- it's always easier to point at someone and say, "he could have read the labels" or "she should have cooked the chicken until it was well done in surgically sterile conditions" than to make the environment safer.)
Little things like, say,having a mild asthma attack when you meet a prof at office hours ("I'm worried about you. You seem tense... consider taking up yoga or something") can torpedo your career choices.
All in all, if you're 18 now and wondering what to do with yourself, and want to go to school-- yes, learn a trade. Something indispensable. You can always follow your aesthetic inclinations through that profession and in your leisure hours.
I think that social mobility is highly mythologized-- possible, but very improbable. Even people who win the lottery generally end up worse off than before they won it, within a very few years. I don't think the problem is necessarily motivation or ambition. At 18, I could not have made a choice that would change my class-- not only was I 18 (and totally incapable of planning for the long run), but my options were limited.
But, that's my whole point. At age 18, for some reason, people just don't know what to do to get out of their situation. It's not a matter of "I can't" ... it's a matter of "I don't know."
Those who DO know, get out. Those who don't, don't.
I mean, why are they the same or worse off when they win millions from the lottery? It's a matter of not knowing what choices to make in order to get onself out of said situation. If a person wins the lottery and then is worse off a few years down the road ... that is due to some really BAD decisions, not "the system."
Our situation in America is not the same as a person living under a tarp or some plywood in Africa, who can't even read, who can't send their children to school, who can barely feed their children, whose children die due to lack of medicine. Or who lives in an orphanage because their parents died from AIDS or starvation. Or who gets booted out of that orphanage onto the street at age 18. They have absolutely NO hope of getting out - regardless of whether they know how.
In America, if you know how to get out of your situation ... you can do it. Many, many, many people take the community college route and then transfer to a 4 year university. It's all about playing your cards right during that time, i.e. work hard in the 2 year college, establish good credit. Get a full or partial scholarship at the 4 year university, help out with financial aid or student loans. Make sure the major you have is a job that will be in demand (do the research first), pay back your student loans before marriage/family. If you have a passion, pursue it on your own time until it makes you money (or just keep it as a hobby). It's a simple formula that MANY people do not know or simply do not care to follow.
Conversely, share somethiing with 5 roommates while working a random job and pursue your passion until you make it. No marriage, no kids before said passion is realized or financial stability is reached.
Or learn a trade, as another poster pointed out.
I'm not trying to make a generalization ... but, for god's sake, when a person doesn't have money, they should NOT have kids. I've seen this several times - people struggling with 3, 4, 5, kids. To me, that's insane.
I'm not saying everyone will be able to afford a BMW and 4,000 square foot house. But, certainly, people can be debt free and live within their means without constant struggle. It's really about smart planning, and it must begin at age 18.
Point is, in America, that formula is possible to realize. In undeveloped countries ... that formula is not going to help anyone.
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